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Cap3 04-27-2005 06:39 AM

Aa..
 
Hey everyone,i don't know who wrote this.I found it long ago on the internet.Im in total agreement with this.And want to share.
Remember if we don't share our experience,strength and hope as it relates to the God who is God,then we are still content to live in the half measures.And half measures avail us nothing.
Bill tells us KNOW the truth and the truth will set you free!!!!!!!!
Tradition 2 states that for our group purpose there is only ONE GOD.
We have shared there is a God and that we are not it.Then with the same breath claim the right to create our own HP and in doing so become the very god we say we are not.Do we throw the God of our founders out of meetings in an attempt to apprease drunks?
Dick B says it best...give the newcomer a break from your own fear.They are smart enough to know that God,s name is not door-knob.I wonder how many fine Christians who are alcoholic have been alienated by AA with all the Jesus bashing.Are the only newcomer we respect the atheist or agnostic,it sometimes would appear that way.
God is mentioned in the 4th edition of the BB over 400 times.The steps and traditions mention the same God 5 times and refer to God as Him and only ONE God.
We twist as i understand Him to fit what makes us feel good rather than reading it in context meaning as i grow and mature to understand Him.
What about this paranoia that we will frighten off the newcomer by talking about God?Why should i listen to you if you keep telling me that you know nothing the longer your around the rooms,the less you know?
I don't apologize when i say that this HP,philosophy is the strongest contributing factor to the success rate of AA,falling from 97% in the days of our founders to a current 10% today...

doorknob 04-27-2005 06:46 AM

Oh my!! This is the type of thing that makes me NEVER want to go back to AA again... IMO, this effectively turns AA from a program with religious concepts to a religion outright.

Doorknob

Dan 04-27-2005 06:53 AM

If there ever was a time for restraint and tolerance, this is it.
Cap, I'll forever stand with you and defend your right to your faith and beliefs.
But I'm afraid some of the language in your post is incendiary, at the very least.

lulu70 04-27-2005 07:09 AM

IMHO--and I have been thinking about this a LOT lately--there is no way everyone can have the same concept of God, or an HP, or whatever. It is not that way in the world, and it should not be that way in AA. Spirituality is a very personal thing. That is why it is such a hard concept to explain. Most major wars have been fought because one side thought their conception of God was the right one. Is that how we want it to be in AA? My God, as I understand him/her/it/them, is my business and no one else's. My concept of a higher power is not nearly as important as how I relate to it and use it to help me deal with everyday life.

Again, this is only my humble opinion, but I thought in this case that it was important for people to hear someone else's experience.

Peace to all--

Music 04-27-2005 07:43 AM

Bill believed in "one God", a Christian God. As I understand it, AA originated as a springoff group from the Oxford Group, which demanded that everyone adhere to their principles only. "As we understood Him" was put into the Big Book for the express purpose of giving future AA members the option of coming to their own understanding of God and not Bill's understanding of God. All we have to do is look around. Even with the appointment of a new Pope, people are arguing about what he should change in the Catholic church. Everyone has their own interpretatioin of what religion is or should be, and their own understanding of God. Why should AA be any different? Cap, you voiced your opinion. Your opinion is based on your understanding! Doorknob has his own opinion based on his understanding. I have mine. We may all agree on some points pertaining to who or what God is, but the Big Book also says that "either He is, or He isn't."
Where I believe people start stepping on others, and essentially become their own God is when they start describing who, what, when, where, why, and how God is. IMO He just is and that's that.
As far as newcomers go, my responsibility is to share my beliefs and understandings with the newcomer. If he/she doesn't like what I say, he/she is free to share with someone else. I have to wonder about a newcomer who says, "this or that makes me want to go back out and drink." To that newcomer I say, "there's the door. It swings both ways." For anyone to expect AA to change to suit them is rediculous. That's like some folks who expect the Pope to put his official "okkie dokkie" on the idea of abortion, gay marriage, women in the priesthood, etc. Who do these people think they are?? To expect an institution which has been around 3000 years, or one that's been around 70 years and working just fine, to all of a sudden change just to suit a small group of people is exactly what's wrong with our societies today. We can't please everyone all the time.
To someone who says he/she doesn't want to belong to AA because of what someone else says or does I say, "find what works for you and don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out."

Dan 04-27-2005 07:53 AM

Well Music, yes and sure.
But the fact remains that a higher power that will be my companion as I get and stay sober needs to be of my understanding.
Period. That's what the book says.

And honestly, a part of my agnostic self envies my brothers ans sisters who have the christian god as their HP, capital letters and all. I deeply respect the bond they have with God.

Part of me also sometimes thinks it would be simpler for me to just say 'Oh heck, why not. JC is my higher power, and so be it.'

Well, since the program requires honesty, I can't very well do that now, can I?

I don't know, maybe it's that freakin' perception thing again... But if we start comparing the value of our HP's, aren't we just engaging in the same old sick behavior that almost got us to an early grave in the first place?

Gooch 04-27-2005 07:55 AM


Originally Posted by Cap3
Hey everyone,i don't know who wrote this.I found it long ago on the internet.Im in total agreement with this.And want to share.

THanks for posting it Cap.. I like some of it and some other parts make the hair on the back of my neck stand up.


Bill tells us KNOW the truth and the truth will set you free!!!!!!!!

Tradition 2 states that for our group purpose there is only ONE GOD.
Yep... THe group with all of it's individual ego's surely needs the guidance of one God. lol


We have shared there is a God and that we are not it.Then with the same breath claim the right to create our own HP and in doing so become the very god we say we are not
I disagree with this statement due to the difference between "creating a God of our understanding" and "creating a relationship with a God of our understanding".



Do we throw the God of our founders out of meetings in an attempt to apprease drunks?
Well i would hesitate to believe that any of us can throw God out of anywhere..



WE twist as i understand Him to fit what makes us feel good rather than reading it in context meaning as i grow and mature to understand Him.
Bingo... and I don't think thats a bad thing... after the damage inflicted on me by those "faithful followers" I needed a God I could feel good about.

Because of the right to a God of my own understanding .. I was able to stay straight long enough to grow and mature. and as far as scaring people off goes, I probably use the word God in my vocabulary more today than thoise guys who had me hanging on to my chair when I first walked in, and I try to be oone of the first ones there to tell them npot to let me or anybody elses "concepts" run them off until they have stuck around long enough to form theior own,


I don't apologize when i say that this HP,philosophy is the strongest contributing factor to the success rate of AA,falling from 97% in the days of our founders to a current 10% today...
I think that anyone, you or I or Bill who says that they don't apologize for thinking that they have an inside line into the reasons for anything in this world wind up getting right back into the selfGod egocentricitty that got most all of us here in the first place.

I'll not throw my .02 out about the "success rates" ... lets just say there are many, and to blame any part of AA takes the responsibility off the individual to "make it work"

I will however admit I don't adhere strongly to statistical analysis as I've seen too often the manipulation of such.

Music 04-27-2005 08:03 AM


Originally Posted by DangerousDan
I don't know, maybe it's that freakin' perception thing again... But if we start comparing the value of our HP's, aren't we just engaging in the same old sick behavior that almost got us to an early grave in the first place?

Absolutely Dan! The reason I would choose to go to a certain church to listen to a certain pastor, priest or whatever, is because I like his interpretation of what the Bible says or what God is about. It's all about perception! And we all can't be right for everyone else. We can only be right for ourselves. I currently go to a Catholic church with my wife. I do this for two reasons. One, to further improve my conscience contact with God as "I understand Him," and B, to support my wife. She likes me to go with her and so I do. However, if I were to stand up in Church and express my views about Jesus and Mary, I'd spoil the whole thing. I'm not Catholic but there are certain things about the mass that I enjoy. I don't agree with everything that said or done at AA meetings either, but I go to meetings so I can stay sober, not to get anyone else sober.

Dan 04-27-2005 08:13 AM

Yep.
So for me, I'll never be able to share my experience, strength and hope as it relates to the God who is God,as written in the opening post in this thread.

... then we are still content to live in the half measures.

Well, that's a statement for the round filing cabinet that sits on the floor by the computer if I've ever read one.

I'd really like to source that article, purely for historical interest.

Chy 04-27-2005 08:17 AM


Originally Posted by Music
Absolutely Dan! The reason I would choose to go to a certain church to listen to a certain pastor, priest or whatever, is because I like his interpretation of what the Bible says or what God is about. It's all about perception! And we all can't be right for everyone else. We can only be right for ourselves. I currently go to a Catholic church with my wife. I do this for two reasons. One, to further improve my conscience contact with God as "I understand Him," and B, to support my wife. She likes me to go with her and so I do. However, if I were to stand up in Church and express my views about Jesus and Mary, I'd spoil the whole thing. I'm not Catholic but there are certain things about the mass that I enjoy. I don't agree with everything that said or done at AA meetings either, but I go to meetings so I can stay sober, not to get anyone else sober.

How do you do that Music? Take the words right out of my mouth? *LOL*

I was a non-practicing Catholic when I entered the rooms of AA, non-practicing because of my personal beliefs, and I just didn't like the religion I was raised with. It made feel like a shell of a person.

When I found AA I nearly balked at having to deal with this "God" again. But the love compassion and suggestions that followed allowed me to se I had a choice now, I could CHOOSE a God of my understanding, with reluctance I did.

Ya know what? I'm in sync now, I've converged my "Catholic God" (really wasn't about God afterall) and my Higher Power. I have and continue to work on further developing my deeper sense of spirituality.

I've begun going to mass now, I've forgiven and moved on. There is some things about my faith I'll never agree with, just as some things about AA I'll question. But I need them both, so rather then be a spoiled brat and take my Barbies and go home, I play nice because I really do enjoy the larger aspects of my playground.

AA reconnected me with a God of my understanding and the God of my understanding granted me sobriety. My way is all.

.....and Music darlin, if you ever get up and do discuss Jesus and Mary during mass.. I just have to be there! :D

Dan 04-27-2005 08:20 AM


Originally Posted by Chy
How do you do that Music? Take the words right out of my mouth?

He's a sneaky ol' devil.
I never turn my back on him;)

Millwallj 04-27-2005 08:35 AM


Originally Posted by DangerousDan
He's a sneaky ol' devil.
I never turn my back on him;)

So, then, if God is a TRUTH

then that means we all have truth within us. and loads of different gods.

However if there is one TRUTH then there is just one God.

it is so painfully inconsistant all the time.

lulu70 04-27-2005 08:42 AM


...it is so painfully inconsistant all the time.
That is why I try not to over-analyze things too much. It makes me very confused!!! :ugh:
All I know is what is or is not working for me today. I will worry about tomorrow is when tomorrow comes.

BikerBill8 04-27-2005 08:43 AM

I have a God of my understanding and it's mine and only mine. He is a kind and loving being and knows all.

doorknob 04-27-2005 08:52 AM


Originally Posted by DangerousDan
Yep.
So for me, I'll never be able to share my experience, strength and hope as it relates to the God who is God,as written in the opening post in this thread.

... then we are still content to live in the half measures.

Well, that's a statement for the round filing cabinet that sits on the floor by the computer if I've ever read one.

I'd really like to source that article, purely for historical interest.

I agree with you about that statement. That statement basically condemns any sobriety that is not "God" based, prior to investigation I might add. If I had a dime for everytime I have heard it...

Doorknob

doorknob 04-27-2005 09:05 AM


Originally Posted by Millwallj
So, then, if God is a TRUTH

then that means we all have truth within us. and loads of different gods.

However if there is one TRUTH then there is just one God.

it is so painfully inconsistant all the time.

That's a good part of why I remain agnostic.

Doorknob

Music 04-27-2005 09:18 AM


Originally Posted by Millwallj
So, then, if God is a TRUTH

then that means we all have truth within us. and loads of different gods.

However if there is one TRUTH then there is just one God.

it is so painfully inconsistant all the time.

There are certain truths that noone can deny. For instance, if I turn on a light switch, the light will come on. Mathematical truths: 2+2=4....etc. Where God is concerned, the truth about God is MY truth. Reality about God is MY reality. If MY truth and/or reality happens to agree with yours, fine. If not, fine. I had trouble in the beginning, coming to a "comfortable" belief in a God of my understanding as is mentioned in the second and third step. My sponsor asked me if I believed him. I said "yes." He said, "then just try believing because I believe." He called that "blind faith." Like I've stated here before. I don't "know" there's a God. Nobody "knows" for sure. There's no proof of there being a God as far as I know. Faith and belief play a big part for me. I started out trying to believe, and the longer I've been sober, the easier it is for me to have faith. I believe and have faith today because I WANT to believe there's a power greater than human power. I have faith today because I've seen things happen in my life that I have no other explanation for. I try to keep things very simple so I don't confuse myself. Most anyone who knows me will confirm the fact that I'm easily confused, and I get very confused when there's doubt, or I start questioning things that even if I found the answer, wouldn't make any difference anyway. For instance: Why am I an alcoholic? Who the hell cares and what good would it do for me to find out?

PS: Doorknob, just find your own truth and don't about anyone else's. We're all allowed to have our own truth and reality. I don't agree with what everyone says, but they certainly have the right to say what they want to say.

KelKel 04-27-2005 10:15 AM

I have faith in the knowldege that for me it is all a big beautiful mystery ... and that is just the way I Like it...


I wanted to share this....

Commentary by Pir-o-Murshid Inayat Khan:

The first and principle thing in the inner life is to establish a relationship with God, making God the object with which we relate ourselves, such as the Creator, Sustainer, Forgiver, Judge, Friend, Father, Mother, and Beloved. In every relationship we must place God before us, and become conscious of that relationship so that it will no more remain an imagination...

The work of the inner life is to make God a reality, so that He is no more an imagination; that this relationship that man has with God may seem more real than any other relationship in the world; and when this happens, then all relationships, however near and dear, become less binding. But at the same time, a person does not thus become cold; he becomes more loving. It is the godless man who is cold, impressed by the selfishness and lovelessness of the world, because he partakes of those conditions in which he lives. But the one who is in love with God, the one who has established his relationship with God, his love becomes living...

To him all things appeal, everything unfolds itself, and it is beauty to his eyes, because God is all-pervading, in all names and all forms; therefore his Beloved is never absent. How happy therefore is the one whose Beloved is never absent, because the whole tragedy of life is the absence of the beloved; and to one whose Beloved is always there, when he has closed his eyes the Beloved is within, and when he has opened his eyes the Beloved is without. His every sense perceives the Beloved; his eyes see Him, his ears hear His voice. When a person arrives at this realization he, so to speak, lives in the presence of God; then to him the different forms and beliefs, faiths and communities do not count. To him God is all-in-all; to him God is everywhere. If he goes to the Christian church, or to the synagogue, to the Buddhist temple, to the Hindu shrine, or to the mosque of the Muslim, there is God. In the wilderness, in the forest, in the crowd, everywhere he sees God.

from http://wahiduddin.net/mv2/I/I_II_2.htm


doorknob 04-27-2005 11:17 AM


Originally Posted by Music
PS: Doorknob, just find your own truth and don't about anyone else's. We're all allowed to have our own truth and reality. I don't agree with what everyone says, but they certainly have the right to say what they want to say.

Hey Music,

I just wanted to say that I really appreciate your support and I think you are one helluva guy!

Doorknob

tyler 04-27-2005 12:13 PM


Originally Posted by DangerousDan
And honestly, a part of my agnostic self envies my brothers ans sisters who have the christian god as their HP, capital letters and all. I deeply respect the bond they have with God.

Part of me also sometimes thinks it would be simpler for me to just say 'Oh heck, why not. JC is my higher power, and so be it.'

Well, since the program requires honesty, I can't very well do that now, can I?

I am with you there Dan. That is why I found the "Fake it till you make it" concept diffiuclt. To thy own self be true. I've been lying to myself for a long time and I that is the last thing I want to hear I need to do. There are so many condridictions like that. On one hand you are told to "take what you need and leave the rest behind," then you are accused of "working your own program and not that of AA/NA."


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