Dan

I've not read this book.
But I will.
Thought I'd throw it out here.

http://stayingsober.com/index.htm

doorknob

I wonder if it addresses the religious and cultish characteristics of AA that turn away so many secular people... or they stay and suffer and feel alienated and are sometimes even shunned...

Paul J

Dan

Hi Paul.
Are you going to read it?

Morning Glory

Hi doorknob,

We have lots of recovery approaches offered on this forum. You may want to post on the alcoholism forum where there are other members who use other methods other than AA.

Please also stop by the Policies, Rules & Regulations forum and read the rules. We stay away from putting down any recovery program.

Thanks,
MG

Andy F

Music

Hey doorknob,
If people come to AA with the desire to get sober and stay sober, they usually find a way to achieve that end. Those who don't want to get sober and stay sober, usually find a way to achieve that end. Make a choice.

Wood Faerie

As for the book, I haven't seen it before, but am intrigued and will see if our library carries it. It sounds good!

As for the rest, I can honestly say I am not aware of any alcoholic who is interested in recovery being shunned from the rooms of AA. And though I do not have much time myself, my dad will celebrate 50 years in a couple of months and I grew up with AA folks and plenty of meetings... I have only seen hope and compassion for those suffering from alcoholism. I know a few members of AA who are atheist, and have no problem working the steps and successfully staying sober by thoroughly following the AA path.

But unfortunately I also know in this world there are always those who manage to give good things a bad name by misrepresenting them or promoting their own agendas, and I am wondering if perhaps, Doorknob, you have had unfortunate experience with this. You know how it is - there is always one of something in every bunch. I know there a plenty of meetings in our area, and each has their own flavor. When I first came in it was suggested I try at least 5 different meetings before giving up on AA. I'm glad I did - the first was definitely not my cup of tea, but I quickly found a group I could call home, for which I am ever grateful.

doorknob

Sorry... I wasn't trying to put AA down as a recovery method for those that have a religious/spiritual mindset. It's just been my experience that people push very hard to get you to conform to those beliefs and if you express your own beliefs and ideas at a meeting, no matter how carefully worded to not offend anyone, you either get attacked or shunned. It's really been a dilemma for me as to whether it is benificial for me to attend 12 Step meetings or not. And that is pretty much all we have here in Central WA.

Paul J

doorknob

Hmmmmm... are you saying that not accepting AA doctrine = not wanting to recover? That's not fair.

Paul J

Dan

Depending on my mood on any given day, you could probably qualify me as an agnostic, atheist, semi atheist, or any combination thereof. On some friday nights, you can add sociopathic anarchist. The word god can be a four letter word if you approach me with it in a certain way.
Having said that, I still bristle at posts that seem to want to infer that the program of AA is based in religion.
I'm also a history buff. I dig the study of the origins of AA, the Oxford groups, and before that something called the Washingtonians I believe.
It goes beyond the shadow of a doubt, I guess, that many of the principals involved in those early days held christian convictions.
It's also a truism that many members in AA today have deep religious faith.
So do many in the rest of society.

The program of Alcoholics Anonymous is not a religious program. It however can be a spiritual program. I've encountered many people in the rooms that would have their views thrust upon you and I. I simply ignore them. It's a game.
I let them think they are shunning me.
I like to think of it as my small contribution to their serenity

doorknob

Hey Dan,
How do religious concepts and ideas differ from spiritual ones? I've looked up both words and they are used as synonyms for one another. I don't see the distinction and those terms are often used interchangeably. In sociology and cultural anthropology religion is defined as belief in the supernatural. Is that not what AA is based on?

Paul J

Dan

Definitions and semantics aside Paul, I simply voiced my opinion. What's your point?

doorknob

Was not trying to make a point, just seeking clarification...

Paul J

Music

I said exactly what I meant. You make of it what you will. Boils down to wanting to stay sober or not. Where there's a will, there's a way.

I met an old Catholic priest who told me it was AA who helped him to move God from his head to his heart. To me, that's the difference between religious and spiritual. Knowledge of Theology is just that....knowledge. I can think I want to get sober, but what am I willing to do about it. Today I think sober, and feel sober. I thank my "spiritual" relationship with my Higher Power for that.

Chy

I recently broached this subject with my sponsor. Being a recovering Catholic as well I had difficulty melding my Higer Power with my strict upbringing in the catholic church. I kept seperating the two entities as "My Catholic God" and "My Higher Power".. well for me there is but one ultimate authority. It took but a sec for me to understand her words, "Chy is it the man made religion and religious protocol or the God your struggling with".. well there it was, it was the religion the religious protocol the religious upbring I was shown. Not my Catholic God, so I just gave him a nickname My Higher Power whom I choose to call God now.

My spiritual beliefs I have formed, a Higher Power of MY understanding, not yours, his, theirs, but my own. I can pray, meditate, feel, connect, and have the utmost faith in this spirtual essence in my life. It's my belief, my own faith, my own personal connection I now term as spiritual, no man made rules to follow just the utmost faith and belief that there is something more powerful then myself guiding me on my path to better understanding and acceptance of what I beleive in.

I think we're all spiritual, on different levels, and my program has taught me to respect the beliefs of others spirituality that's a cool thing to me. So I see religion or religious beliefs as the process people go through when they walk into a church, synagogue, temple, shrine. Spirtuality is a personal and private connection that we understand and what we believe and have faith in.

Phew! Been wanting to share that for awhile now!

doorknob

Thanks Chy,

I guess in those terms I am neither religious nor spiritual. LOL

Paul J

Time2Surrender

I dont think I'm familiar with "Staying Sober in AA" I guess I should pick up a copy.

Chy

ahhh but see those are just MY thoughts, and beliefs, freedom to choose is a very cool thing.

1Marty

Religion for me is a man made method we use to worship, praise, and nurture our relationship with the higher power. Religion usually comes with certain rules, traditions or requirements. Because religous groups are run by human beings, they will not be perfect. So they can often seem to fail us, not meet our needs, or discourage.

Spirituaitly for me is the belief that there is somthing out there, greater than myself, that somehow controls the flow of the universe. Weather it be a God, a feeling, the Sun or whatever. Spirituaitly is what gives my life deeper purpose.

So basically I believe, Religion=the process, spirituality=the belief.
As Chy said though, we all are free to choose what is meaningful to us.

TracyAgain

Whew! First glance at Dan's post, the book looked like food for the "black dog" - LOL.

I knew treatment stuff had gotten enmeshed in AA and am looking forward to reading it.

Tracy