5th Step "...and to another human being..."??
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Originally Posted by August252015 
^^^A way I took that is that character defects and our wrongs are not usually "new." We understand each other exactly because all of us have done some version of the same stuff- so that's why the BB lays out the process of listing resentments, fears, sex conduct (relationships)...we see threads of dishonesty, pride, greed, abusive behavior, on and on. If we are honest, thorough, and forthright, then share this stuff with another, we keep moving to steps 6-7 and further into the action steps up to 12.
This is all a reason we need a guide to help us and How It Works is the key (as part of the first 163 pp).
This is all a reason we need a guide to help us and How It Works is the key (as part of the first 163 pp).
Which is not always easy to find and why I recommend taking one's time.
It's not uncommon to hear a member upset/confused at being told to look at their part in a traumatic experience which occurred when they were young.
Such experiences are perhaps best left for a therapist to unpack.
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
Character defects and wrongs, to me, seem to be two different things. A wrong arises from a character defect, and in the case of alcoholics, a measure of insanity may also be in the picture. For example it would be a wrong for me to rob a bank and such a deed would arise from selfishness and dishonesty.
I agree with earlier posters that fourth steps don't vary much. After all there are only so many defects of character one can have. They are described in various ways from psychological to moral or biblical terms. Nobody has ever come up with a character defect I have not heard of, nor practiced or thought about practicing at some time in my life. To me they are about attitudes, beliefs and values that drive behaviors, they give me grief when I try to live sober because I do not know how to live in a way that does not put me in conflict with everything and everyone about me. These were the stumbling blocks that caused my failure both at life and at staying sober.
In respect of the fifth step, in an entirely different chapter, it talks about, for example, vague memories of sick episodes by which the alcoholic is revolted and hopes nobody saw. He tries to push these memories deep inside himself. Much of this behavior arises not only from character defects, in fact I would say the beginning, picking up the first drink arises directly from this cause, but thereafter insanity is a, if not the, major contributor. You will recall the term "Insanely drunk" from the book.
These events can vary tremendously. I very rarely hear a fifth step that is the same as mine. Different people have sunk to different depths. Their feelings about those depths reflect their own values thus, in one instant a person is revolted at some moral failing they consider completely against their own values, while another person may be untroubled by exactly the same thing.
Some of the things I have heard in fifth steps include various crimes like rape, murder, robbery, embezzlement, fraud, drink driving, bestiality, burglary, etc, and things like unpaid debts, collapsed businesses and bankruptcies and so forth. Terrible harms to the people around us, yet apart from drink driving for which I was never directly prosecuted, I have done none of those things.
You might think that offers me some hope of not being too bad in AA terms, however, most fifth steps I have heard people have not sunk to the same moral depths as I have in terms of their wrongs, although in terms of how they may feel about it, we are probably very similar.
My experience, fourth steps are similar, fifth steps can vary enormously.
I agree with earlier posters that fourth steps don't vary much. After all there are only so many defects of character one can have. They are described in various ways from psychological to moral or biblical terms. Nobody has ever come up with a character defect I have not heard of, nor practiced or thought about practicing at some time in my life. To me they are about attitudes, beliefs and values that drive behaviors, they give me grief when I try to live sober because I do not know how to live in a way that does not put me in conflict with everything and everyone about me. These were the stumbling blocks that caused my failure both at life and at staying sober.
In respect of the fifth step, in an entirely different chapter, it talks about, for example, vague memories of sick episodes by which the alcoholic is revolted and hopes nobody saw. He tries to push these memories deep inside himself. Much of this behavior arises not only from character defects, in fact I would say the beginning, picking up the first drink arises directly from this cause, but thereafter insanity is a, if not the, major contributor. You will recall the term "Insanely drunk" from the book.
These events can vary tremendously. I very rarely hear a fifth step that is the same as mine. Different people have sunk to different depths. Their feelings about those depths reflect their own values thus, in one instant a person is revolted at some moral failing they consider completely against their own values, while another person may be untroubled by exactly the same thing.
Some of the things I have heard in fifth steps include various crimes like rape, murder, robbery, embezzlement, fraud, drink driving, bestiality, burglary, etc, and things like unpaid debts, collapsed businesses and bankruptcies and so forth. Terrible harms to the people around us, yet apart from drink driving for which I was never directly prosecuted, I have done none of those things.
You might think that offers me some hope of not being too bad in AA terms, however, most fifth steps I have heard people have not sunk to the same moral depths as I have in terms of their wrongs, although in terms of how they may feel about it, we are probably very similar.
My experience, fourth steps are similar, fifth steps can vary enormously.
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Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 8,674
What Mike said.
And to the suggestion of doing the 5th with an AA person - I'll gently suggest that doing it with a non-relative is a good idea, at some point. Personally, I doubt I would have truly gotten "everything" out with someone in my family or close circle. Maybe not intentionally omitting but subcon. Just my $0.02.
And to the suggestion of doing the 5th with an AA person - I'll gently suggest that doing it with a non-relative is a good idea, at some point. Personally, I doubt I would have truly gotten "everything" out with someone in my family or close circle. Maybe not intentionally omitting but subcon. Just my $0.02.
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