Realest

Many people say there are a principle behind each step. Like step 1 honest. Step 2 hope. But that’s not true. Mark H pouston and other people have said the steps are a set of spiritual exercises not principles, They have good principles in them but they don’t stand for principles. They are spiritual exercises that are to be fellowed. If you disagree with me you disagree with Mark Houston.

DayTrader

Mark's been one of my top 10 favorites for 10+ years, but not everything he says is necessarily "the way it is." I'm happy to disagree with some of what he says and I'd bet money he'd be very happy with that decision. We're challenged to form a relationship with a God of our choosing and to seek guidance from that Power. Presuming everything Mark says is the only way it can be would be to set aside that relationship with God and that vital 6th sense we work so hard to develop.

Tommyh

I don`t mess with that list of principles,it really complicates life,and there is no way to live it during the day
I don`t agree with everything Mark said either but he said tons of great stuff that helped others

August252015

Realest-you seem to post so many questions along these lines...are they out of your curiousness, wanting a poll from others....not sure I follow as they seem a big...antagonistic. I forget if you have a sponsor to discuss these things with?

This reminds me of your question about the 12 & 12...

tomsteve

.....and to practice these principles on all our affairs.
what principles?
step 1-if i didnt have the principle of honesty i couldnt admit
step 2- if i didnt have the principle of hope that there was a HP i couldnt
step 3-get the principle of faith that turning it over would help
step 4-if i didnt have the principle of courage i couldnt have faced everything
step5-if i didnt have the principle of integrity i couldnt have the stength to share with another.
step6-if i didnt have the principle of willingness to have my shortcomings removed i souldnt
step 7-gain the principle of[B] humility[/B to give it up.
step 8- if i didnt have the principle of love i couldnt see how i truly harmed others
step9-if i didnt have the principle of discipline there was no way i would have gone through this step
step 10-if i dont have the principle of perseverance then i wouldnt keep lookin at myself and learning
step 11-if i dont have the principle of awareness i wouldnt be able to hear or see God.
step12-if i dont have the principle of service to God and others, id get drunk.

theres different words/ways used to describe the principles of each step.
spiritual exercises are principles,too

Grungehead

Step 12:

(bolding and underlining mine)

I like to listen to Mark Houston and find his talks helpful. I think it may just be a matter of semantics. But the guy who wrote the 12 Steps also specifically stated in the 12th Step that we should practice these principles in all our affairs. What principles is he talking about? The principles of the 11 steps above number 12. I still think it's more a matter of semantics...One person's set of spiritual exercises may be another person's set of spiritual principles.

Or it could be that after working the set of spiritual exercises (the steps) the byproduct is a set of spiritual principles to live by.

DayTrader

I find maaaany principles in each of the steps - probably the most in step 1.

For me, NOT practicing them would pretty much spell the end of my recovery. The program, for me, isn't simply a list of mechanical actions that I do - be it once or several times.

And Realest, I think you're missing something in Mark's talks. I learned specifically from Mark to work with the principles of "pause," "sought," "driven," "choice / choose," and a whole lot more. I think the first post was a tad misleading but you're, of course, entitled to your own opinion;

Tommyh

The principles we have set down are guides to progress,
the principles are really the steps

tomsteve

i happened to look into how many times the word "principles" is used in the BB.
i count 26.
singular form 5.

now that ive complicated my thinkin on it for a few hours, imma gonna go have some bacon. thats more simple.

DayTrader

lololol

skg

Um... The FOREWORD of AA's Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions..

Ken33xx

Personally, I like the questions Realest asks.

When I got sober there was no internet. All I learned was from those in the rooms. My sponsor helped me to stay sober and was a good man. He had a lot of opinions on the right/wrong way AA works which is no different than today.

What is different is today you can go on-line for feedback too.

fini

yes, i like the fact that the questions are asked.
and even if they were 'antagonistic', which is not how they strike me, so what?

August252015

I was just trying to find out why they are posed - they all seem consistently challenging to me. Not a bad thing necessarily, but for me a group think on the internet (even with its variety- or in some cases because of it) isn't the best (or only, if that is what it is, as I asked) forum for these major ones.

tomsteve

i find these threads to be online topic meetings.
could you imagine where we'd be if bill didnt ask doc silkworth a billion questions???

Realest

They’re posed to find out more and discuss a topic. They’re not antagonistic. And I already have a sponsor but this is an Internet forum.

awuh1

IMO the steps are a spiritual exercise (or set of exercises) that involve a set of principles. I don't see a conflict.

Gottalife

"Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant. His drunkenness and dissolution are not penalties inflicted by people in authority; they result from his personal disobedience to spiritual principles."

This is from the 12 and 12. In the dictionary, principles are defined as laws, just in this case they are spiritual laws not enforced by earthly authorities. One way to look at it is each time we break one of these laws, it is like bending reality.

Picture holding a plastic ruler vertically with the base near your chin. Now bend the rule away from your face (bend reality) and hold. Now the ruler is charged with kinetic energy. At some point in the future, a day a week, a month, a year, it will snap back and smack you right between the eyes.

Grungehead

The ruler analogy is spot on Mike. I can attest to it through my experiences...and I'm here to tell you it hurts like hell when it happens.

P.S. it hurts even worse the 2nd time you do it. Not planning on trying it a 3rd time, I'm finally convinced that reality cannot be bent.

Realest

That hurt my head to read that