Do you agree with everything written in the big book and the 12 & 12? - SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information
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Old 05-30-2019, 11:27 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Do you agree with everything written in the big book and the 12 & 12?


I definetly agree that resentment (and self pity) is the worst offender. I donít agree about other stuff though
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Old 05-30-2019, 11:55 AM   #2 (permalink)
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When I have serious questions about the steps, I turn to NA literature because it is up-to-date and not sexist. The NA step book is It works: How and Why
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Old 05-30-2019, 12:01 PM   #3 (permalink)
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What kind of things do you disagree with or have different ESH, maybe, about?
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Old 05-30-2019, 12:14 PM   #4 (permalink)
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When I have serious questions about the steps, I turn to NA literature because it is up-to-date and not sexist. The NA step book is It works: How and Why
It’s not sexist. Maybe you’re just too sensitive.

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What kind of things do you disagree with or have different ESH, maybe, about?
I don’t think selfishness is not root of our troubles. It’s an outdated theory.
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Old 05-30-2019, 02:49 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I don’t think selfishness is not root of our troubles. It’s an outdated theory.
notice what starts the selfish thing in the BB:
Selfishness - self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles.

doesnt selfishness exist in many alcoholics still today?

as far as in the steps, i agree with it for me.
back in the family afterwards- i think it would have been better if lois wrote that-theres some enabling suggestions,imo,in that chapter.
as far as the 12&12- i havent read that in a long time.
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Old 05-30-2019, 05:28 PM   #6 (permalink)
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There are maybe a handful of statements in the AA book that I don't agree with BUT from the research I've done, Bill didn't necessarily agree with them either when he wrote them. Being a very smart man, and probably divinely guided in his writing, I do think that even if what I think is the truth really IS what Bill thought, had he written it the book would have been less effective in those sections. There are times where discretion and being inclusive is more important than trying to prove a point. -- a truth that I have a very difficult time practicing.

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I don’t think selfishness is not root of our troubles. It’s an outdated theory.
That one ^^^^ and the one that reads "...so our troubles, we think are of our own making. "

Man oh man did I believe those two sentences were COMPLETELY off target. I disagreed with them for oh........ probably two years and several trips through the steps. I couldn't pinpoint when exactly but I can say now I've yet to find one single instance where they've ever been wrong.

When I was new in recovery, I was still clinging to a gazillion "old ideas," old habits, old ways of thinking and processing the world as I saw it...... and those two lines in the book (and a lot of other ones to be frank) severely threatened how I'd thought and lived for the better part of 2 or 3 decades. I wasn't willing to really even consider if they were true and furthermore, any "investigation" I supposedly did into the possibility of those lines being accurate was severely clouded and influenced by my intense desire to be right. Based upon my actions, it would have been safe to say I would have much preferred to be right and miserable than wrong and then able to get free of some pain.

You don't "have" to agree with everything in the book Realest, just like one doesn't HAVE to go south in the winter if they want to avoid another northern winter. Both parties are perfectly able to stay where they are. I would suggest that maybe you ask God if those lines you resent so much are right...... or important..... and if there's anything in them He wants you to consider when they come into your consciousness.

Maybe this will help melt some of your contempt -

Was there ever a time where you were 100% convinced you could control your drinking....... but you were dead wrong and didn't know it?

Was there a time when you just knew you weren't going to drink again...... but did?

Was there ever a time when you were convinced someone thought about you in a certain way but later found out they thought quite the opposite of what you were originally so sure of?

If you're like me, all three of those questions will help you see now, today, that you've been utterly convinced of many things in your life - but over time you came to find out you were nowhere close to the truth. Now, being "wrong" doesn't make us dumb or stupid - we simply didn't have ALL the information / ALL the facts. We made decisions, based upon what little (and sometimes more-than-a-little) investigation we'd done and built a house of ideals on a very shaky foundation of sand. The Big Book refers to this as "delusion." I like to differentiate denial from delusion as this - denial is me continuing to believe something even though I know the "real" truth. With delusion, I don't even really see the facts as being contrary because I'm completely committed to believing in X no matter what the evidence to the contrary.

So.............. if I've been delusional in the past, isn't it possible I'm in some delusion even today? And if it's possible, gee, I wonder what those things are? Hmmm, well since I'm deluded, by definition I can't see them so maybe I should do what the program suggests and work the steps in THIS area of my life --- and you've seen in several of my posts how that's very simply done. And here's a really cool fact - you don't have to believe in things to do them. The steps ask us to consider things, then to do things, and take the process into prayer in an attempt to improve our conscious contact with a Power Greater than ourselves.... so you're able to take the second step consideration, make the choice we're asked to in the 2nd step, and even make the decision of the 3rd step as well as write the 4th step (which is a journey through our selfishness and self-centeredness) even without believing any of is is right.


Believe what you want but I'd encourage you to try and avoid digging your heels in on just about anything. You'd be surprised how many things you (and I... ) are convinced of today that will look like complete lunacy to us in a year or two as we gain more knowledge, understanding and experience.
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Old 05-31-2019, 03:50 AM   #7 (permalink)
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in the big book,there is only one statement I don`t agree with,the rest,I am 100% onboard
that statement is
are these extravagent promises?
We think not,well,I strongly disagree
I have been called down in meetings because when half the crowd chants,we think not,I say "I think so" or even bellow out a "probally"
one chair told me once to go sit in the corner untill I learned to behave myself.....lol ..or really he may have meant ,untill I learned to follow the crowd and not think for myself

always think for your self!

I took a black marker and marked it out in my book


about the 12x12,that is just Bill`s opinion
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Old 05-31-2019, 03:54 AM   #8 (permalink)
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one more thing,resentment is not my number one offender today.....it used to be

my complanceity or laziness is, that leads me to resentment
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Old 05-31-2019, 06:20 AM   #9 (permalink)
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DT wrote on this topic way more eloquently than I was about too, but I concur with everything said. Especially the caution against digging in our heels about what we don't like, to paraphrase.

I'd add a couple things:
Learning the steps and doing them is one thing.
The other "meat" of the book is, for me, how to live- how to apply them, and how to relate to others. I don't "connect" with the story Our Southern Friend like I do the Women Suffer Too. And, I take issue when people whine or criticize things that are essentially based on when the book was written, by whom, and who the current societal audience was considered. Just like I do when people say Shakespeare or Salinger or ... the Bible....is outdated, sexist, exclusionary...so on ad nauseum.

BECAUSE here's where I feel that looking for similarites not differences is critical. What rings true with (any) you? Selfishness, fear, and particularly when drinking victimhood and anger rang true for me. Those are perhaps "my things" to keep close in mind. Other stuff for other folks.

Here's where I think "take what you want and leave the rest" applies. It DOESN'T apply to picking and choosing what steps you think are OK or that you want to work. It does, IMO, apply to how you create a living program of recovery that works for you, to always have Step one and that big word acceptance in mind, keep your inventory and spiritual life, and serve others.

Intellectual challenging and picking about words only served me badly and kept me drinking for a long time.
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Old 05-31-2019, 07:43 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I feel that looking for similarites not differences is critical.

"take what you want and leave the rest"

Intellectual challenging and picking about words only served me badly and kept me drinking for a long time.
Great post, August!! Home Run!! Always enjoy Day Traders replies too! Thanks everyone!
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Old 05-31-2019, 07:44 AM   #11 (permalink)
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one more thing,resentment is not my number one offender today.....it used to be

my complanceity or laziness is, that leads me to resentment
I played with that one in my head for the better part of probably two years. I was taught (challenged?) to take things that I really disliked (and things I really liked, as well) and super-dig-into them, over time, take them into prayer, the whole deal. The idea is to continually try, to put myself in a position where all or at least most of my ideas are set aside and whatever truth might be there becomes apparent to me. Typically, the first dozen or more beliefs I have are quite biased, even though I'm not conscious of it at the time.

Complacence and laziness have been at or near the top of my list for a long time. You know, that list of defects that I just can't seem to overcome with much consistency. Also, they seem to be on that other list of defects I've continually asked, begged and even demanded God remove. Here again, I don't see much progress - well certainly not as much as I want (demand, think I NEED, believe I require to be happy? ).

Where I am with it now is looking to where the complacency and laziness stem from. And in that search, I keep landing on selfishness and a huge helping of self-centeredness. And that's definitely (I believe) not because Bill wrote that those are the root of our problem..... but they're just what I keep finding as the damn source for soooooo many of the things i find so unpleasant and ultimately painful in my life. What I tend to see though, is when I'm experiencing a this pain, and doing so over an extended period of time, I start to act out on others. You can bet your bottom dollar that in this state, mistrust and disrespect are starting to rise, I start to focus on differences, I start to really dislike a whole bunch of ppl - even hate some of em - and this is what I believe is the practice of resentment.

Man oh man, when I'm working those resentment muscles they grow strong amazingly quick. It's scary to me, how quickly I rocket off the spiritual beam and go right back into that old life in a spiritual void....... not drinking.... but living and practicing soooooo many of the most reprehensible parts of active addiction. I don't know I'd say the resentment was the source, but I do think that's the mechanism I employ that takes me out.
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Old 05-31-2019, 08:21 AM   #12 (permalink)
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selfishness and a huge helping of self-centeredness



ain`t that the truth DT
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Old 05-31-2019, 08:22 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Intellectual challenging and picking about words only served me badly and kept me drinking for a long time.
This! This! This! I struggled for years in early recovery because I paid too much attention to words and sentences rather than the message that was behind the words. I was stuck on the surface. I needed to dig into the meat of what was being conveyed.

I make progress when I focus on how not why. When I look for things in life that I disagree with, I can easily find them. There are multitudes. When I look for things in life that I agree with, I can find them. Agree or disagree is about value judgements more than about solutions. How is about solutions. Why is more about value judgements. If I had to agree with an action before taking it, I would still be drunk!
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Old 05-31-2019, 08:45 AM   #14 (permalink)
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This! This! This! I struggled for years in early recovery because I paid too much attention to words and sentences rather than the message that was behind the words. I was stuck on the surface. I needed to dig into the meat of what was being conveyed.

I make progress when I focus on how not why. When I look for things in life that I disagree with, I can easily find them. There are multitudes. When I look for things in life that I agree with, I can find them. Agree or disagree is about value judgements more than about solutions. How is about solutions. Why is more about value judgements. If I had to agree with an action before taking it, I would still be drunk!
On point, we’ll said, Nez!

this was me too, I over analyzed Everything in early recovery/ first year I think.. When I work on changing this behavior I grow a little..

Good stuff, thanks for sharing
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Old 05-31-2019, 09:18 AM   #15 (permalink)
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^^^Nez and Dave- that's an excellent point about overthinking once we are sober. So, I have stopped drinking- but still have to change that inclination I have because that overthinking tendency usually gets me all twisted up in my head, emotionally exhausted...and makes it a longer process of getting to what I probably already know to do, or how to let something go and so on.

Great reminder of how we need to self-correct things in our sober lives, always!
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Old 05-31-2019, 09:31 AM   #16 (permalink)
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...... people say Shakespeare or Salinger or ... the Bible....is outdated, sexist, exclusionary...so on ad nauseum.

BECAUSE here's where I feel that looking for similarites not differences is critical. What rings true with (any) you? Selfishness, fear, and particularly when drinking victimhood and anger rang true for me. Those are perhaps "my things" to keep close in mind. Other stuff for other folks.

------------------------------

Here's where I think "take what you want and leave the rest" applies. It DOESN'T apply to picking and choosing what steps you think are OK or that you want to work. It does, IMO, apply to how you create a living program of recovery that works for you, to always have Step one and that big word acceptance in mind, keep your inventory and spiritual life, and serve others.

Intellectual challenging and picking about words only served me badly and kept me drinking for a long time.
I'm soooooooooo on board with both of these "points" you made. Funny enough, I've been PROFOUNDLY guilty of practicing their opposites quite often.
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Old 05-31-2019, 10:38 AM   #17 (permalink)
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selfishness and a huge helping of self-centeredness

ain`t that the truth DT
I'm tellin ya...... I guess they're really good things though because they keep me constantly going back to God for help.

oh, and I remembered this from the Employer chapter: The greatest enemies of us alcoholics are resentment, jealousy, envy, frustration, and fear.
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Old 05-31-2019, 12:24 PM   #18 (permalink)
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For me it's a take what works and leave the rest. I agree with all of the first 164, but the stories in back in some cases express opinions I simply disagree with. It doesn't derail my sobriety or threaten my recovery because I accept them for what they are. Someone else's story and their own perspective.
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Old 05-31-2019, 08:36 PM   #19 (permalink)
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On point, weíll said, Nez!

this was me too, I over analyzed Everything in early recovery/ first year I think.. When I work on changing this behavior I grow a little..

Good stuff, thanks for sharing
Me too! I have only recently completely surrended and stopped all the analysing. Ahhhh the relief was instant. But of course it's a daily programme lol.

i did hear in a meeting mot long ago the more intelligent you are the more you try to pick apart the programme (it was said in a jokey manner) and I liked that hee hee EGO! 🤣🤣 but seriously, I just wanna be effing sober and a decent human. That's basically what it boils down to so am really working on not over complicating things. Today!

Great thread!
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Old 05-31-2019, 08:47 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Me too! I have only recently completely surrended and stopped all the analysing. Ahhhh the relief was instant. But of course it's a daily programme lol.

i did hear in a meeting mot long ago the more intelligent you are the more you try to pick apart the programme (it was said in a jokey manner) and I liked that hee hee EGO! ���� but seriously, I just wanna be effing sober and a decent human. That's basically what it boils down to so am really working on not over complicating things. Today!

Great thread!
Amen, Snitch.. great to see you!

I just want peace and serenity too, it makes it easier for me to get there when i talk / share my feelings with my other friends in the fellowship!! I Try to keep it simple..

Wishing you the best
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