Pathwaytofree

One of my sponsees has a mother with BPD. (Borderline Personality Disorder) My mother also has BPD. I shared my recovery experiences I had with my mother with my sponsee. That being said, I had a very difficult time with using the 12 steps with my mother. I had to combine things my therapist told me to do, with what my sponsor told me to do. I felt like my sponsor had been wanting me to be like Mother Teresa around my mother, and that was just not going to be healthy for me in the least.

We teach in 12-step to love one another, forgive one another, pray for someone you resent, be kind, loving, and tolerant, etc. But I almost think that sometimes some of these things this can make matters worse, especially when dealing with a person with BPD or NPD (Narcissisitic Personality Disorder).

When I am kind, loving, and tolerant toward my mother, it does help calm her. But I have to still make sure to set boundaries, take care of myself, keep visits and phone calls very brief, not tell her too much personal information, watch for when she's acting manipulative or trying to get something out of me, be aware of when she's playing one sibling against the other, not react to a ranting, angry email, etc.

I also have to make sure she doesn't take advantage of my being kind, loving, and tolerant. Maybe that's not 12-step-ish, but I have to think of myself in this case and my own needs.

I do feel I am giving my sponsee good suggestions and action steps, even if it's different than how my sponsor taught me. But I wanted to hear from others.

I do wish there was some way to combine AA with ACOA or Alanon in these sort of cases. I have a similar issue with my other sponsee and her untreated alcoholic ex-husband.

How do you explain "kind, loving, tolerant, treat them like their one of God's children, etc." to your sponsees, but in a way that protects their self and not to be walked all over?

I will not just sit there and smile, ignoring bad behavior and just let people try to treat me badly. I stand up for myself. And that is not something my AA sponsor taught me. I figured it out on my own and with my therapist's help. But I am unsure how to teach this all to my sponsee. I have suggested she call her therapist. She seems to be dragging her feet with that and I'm not sure why.

My sponsee asked me why she shouldn't just go "no contact" with her mother, since she's toxic. I told her what my therapist would say, and what I need to say as her sponsor. This gets really tricky because going "no contact" would be going against the 12-steps/big book. However, going "no contact" may have been something I think her therapist recommended, which would mean it might be best for her own recovery and peace of mind.

I took a lot of time and energy trying to help her work through this, because she's scared of relapsing. She's not in drama, but this is all weighing heavily on her mind. I went through everything my own 12 step work taught me about acceptance vs condoning, turning to God, what to do when angry according to the big book, letting go of expectations, the sick man's prayer, etc. But I just am uncertain what the 12 steps teach about what to do with a person who is downright mentally ill/abusive toward you in the present moment. Or should she just do these things and nothing else? What do I tell her about her question about why shouldn't she cut her mother off if she's this toxic to her?

I look forward to hearing everyone's thoughts and experiences.

fini

if someone is abusive to me i certainly do not need to stick around.
i do not see how opting for no contact with someone is " against" the steps. sometimes, that is the kindest thing.

her job is to figure out her part and take care of that. and sometimes we need to do that by not letting ourselves be doormats or abused.

but these situations are complex and you do not need to have an answer in order to help your sponsee figure out her own answer. sounds like you have shared with her extensively on what the suggested process is, and it is now up to her to come to her own conclusion.

Berrybean

You obviously Have a lot of experience, strength and hope in this area. How about you just share that, and help her think through her choices, and encourage her to seek appropriate help outside of AA for those things that aren't addressed by the program? I have a great sponsor, and that's pretty much what she did.

I think it is the AA way to maintain healthy relationships as much as we can, but having healthy expectations and acting accordingly (setting boundaries that are healthy and keep us safe) is equally important. If someone has proven themselves to be dangerous (and that can mean emotionally as well as physically) , then we can be courteous from a distance. Doing the next right, or most loving thing, doesn't always mean treating everyone in the same way. Praying for someone isn't going to be sparking them off unless we go telling them "hey, I've been praying for ya." We can leave it in God's hands. I've forgiven some people who abused me as a child for example, doesn't mean I'm gonna go find them and tell them and act all outwardly loving on them. That would be asking for trouble.

There are different kinds of love. Sometimes it's worth exploring them all before talking about going out and being loving. For example, Affection, Friendship, Eros and Charity. I would say that the kind of love I can extend to my past abusers (for my own sanity, and as an act of love that i know and God knows, but wouldnt be seen outwardly) is charity, based on the idea that maybe they have (or will one day have) regrets for what they did, or were damaged themselves in ways that I don't know about. Affection, Eros, or friendship would be foolish and dangerous given what I know of them. But I can extend the grace that I have been given to them as part of an 'inside job'.

Being loving / extending grace can just be that decision to accept that the parent is who they are, and may be isn't actually capable of being the loving, caring parent that we would like them to be. Removing that expectation for them to be a great parent, and gradually stopping the wishful thinking around their shortcomings means that eventually the relationship isn't full of constant disappointments (when they fall short of our expectations), and we can gradually feel less dread around them.

Maybe you could encourage her to seek out further help and support for this area. (It could be part of restorative amends or even as part of her eleventh step work). CoDa or ACoA could be useful fellowships for her to investigate. Their handbooks were very useful to me in identifying behaviours and reactions of mine that I couldn't quite understand the reasons behind (those fear-filled people pleasing tendencies that come from desperately trying to be good enough as a child that it won't rock the boat and set someone off, which is of course craziness, nothing pleases some folks, and practically any kind of normality can be triggering, but that's their sickness, not our fault). Counselling then helped me move on from specific issues, but I'm still working on it. Inner Child Rescue work was another thing that helped me (using a book by Penny Parks) , as there was a part of me that felt unable to forgive because it would be like abandoning that childhood me and saying that those experienced didn't matter and were 'okay'. I needed to accept that they did matter very much, but I didn't need to keep punishing myself for something someone else did wrong by holding on to the resentments I had about them. I could then (eventually) allow myself to go ahead and be happy, and take that childhood me along for the ride. On the outside nothing much had happened, but on the inside, woah! Life felt and looked very, very different. Where does being loving come into that? Well, I wasn't going around with a heart full of hate. And that was a massive step in the right direction. Progress not perfection after all.

Anyway. This post has turned very long, and I suspect waffle, so I apologise for that. I'm not going to delete half of it as I'm tempted to do, because perhaps something in my waffle will be useful to someone.

BB

Ps I also found this useful, in particular the bit about determining boundaries. Also, remembering that if someone who has acted abusively towards us and repents(has had a change of heart) that is very different from dealing with someone who doesn't even recognise or acknowledge the harm they are doing or want to change. Boundaries are very very important. Diclaimer, this article is written from a Christian perspective, which I found helpful, but you may not...
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...abuser&f=false

Tommyh

I have found that just bouncing it off my sponsor or a close AA friend helps me see the answer.

Pathwaytofree

Thanks, Tommy. I spoke with my sponsor about it. She helped me see where I may have tried to do too much here for my sponsee. She reminded me that my only is to place her hand in God's hand and let God guide her.

I exhausted myself trying to help her with this. Lesson learned.

paulokes

Sometimes "my part in it" is not walking away from a person or situation...quietly, calmly and with the most compassion I can muster.

Were not doormats. I learn tho if I keep my mouth shut and heart open I maintain my dignity and peace of mind

P

Mango212

I do wish there was some way to combine AA with ACOA or Alanon in these sort of cases.


Alanon led me to a close connection with my Higher Power/God/Great Spirit.

That.

Changed.

Everything.

Mango212

God, please give me eyes to see, ears to hear and strength to embrace the illogical.

As my heart opened to recognizing, seeing, hearing and embracing life and HP's guidance in new ways, miracles become everyday experiences on many levels.


I was led by my Higher Power into No Contact with my toxic FOO before I knew why. More was revealed over time, in God's way, not mine.

Pathwaytofree

OMG I love this!! This was not how I was taught by my sponsor. It's being kind and loving toward YOURSELF!! Thankfully, my therapist sort of taught me this, without using these words. He was very helpful in that respect. He told me even with family, if they start acting toxic, I can remove myself with any explanation needed. I learned self-care and self-empowerment in therapy, not in AA. And I desperately needed to learn these things, because I spent a lot of my life being a doormat.

"Being a woman of grace and dignity" is something I often hear in AA which I think is important, too. "Restraint of pen and tongue." Definitely helps with keeping our peace of mind!

Pathwaytofree

Thanks Mango. So you know what I mean? If you could, how would you combine AA with Alanon/ACOA like for these sort of matters?

LOL I love this! One of the most important lessons I learned in therapy, was to not expect illogical people to act logical.

Same here. It truly is all about improving our conscious contact with our Higher Power.

This is very interesting that God led you to this. Fascinating, actually. My sponsor, a previous sponsor, and the guy who started my home group did not think that going NC with a toxic FOO was "kind, loving, and tolerant". They have absolutely no understanding of truly toxic FOOs and think that if you give them love, they'll act loving. Nope! Sometimes with toxic FOOs, being patient, kind, loving, and tolerant is exactly what they use against you. I commend you for trusting your HP.

Did Alanon/ACOA help you deal with your toxic FOO?

Mango212

God, please give me eyes to see, ears to hear and strength to embrace the illogical.


God leads me in knowing Him in new ways through this prayer. Often I'm lead to Native American beliefs.

This beautiful life is illogical. Mental illnesses and addictions are illogical. Recovery is illogical.

Pathwaytofree

Thanks Mango. That's a great twist on the Serenity prayer. "Embrace the illogical"--I like that.

"Recovery is illogical"?

sugarbear1

I'd spend time meditating, see what your hp suggests....

Pathwaytofree

Thanks, sb. Sometimes when I do, the answers aren't so clear. That's why I like to bounce it off people in my electronic network here.

lizinaussie

I went no contact with both my parents 2 years ago.
Best decision of my life. They are extremely needy people and my sickness is focusing on other people and their dramas rather than living my own life.
I occasionally talk to my siblings and their stories tell me nothing has changed.

Has been a huge lesson in growing up for me and daily I have to ask myself if I am behaving like my parents by expecting other people to fix my life then raging at them when they don’t.

Sometimes in AA, it’s eay to forget that the first person who needs love, tolerance and grace, is ourselves. Then the power flows out. I’m constantly reminding myself of this.

Pathwaytofree

I understand what you mean. And AA step work doesn't address this at all. We're supposed to be kind, loving, tolerant, and patient to spiritually sick people. We're not supposed to be a doormat or grovel, but it doesn't really focus on this enough.

I remember early on in my sobriety, I drove 3 hours in traffic to visit a friend. When I finally arrived at her home, she didn't offer me a drink or anything. The first words out of her mouth were, "My mother's here, she was just taking a nap." But her mother was actually awake. It was odd. I finally asked if I could use the bathroom and have a drink of water.

I had thought she and I were going to do stuff together. However, over the next three hours, I sat there calmly and warmly, listening to her mother talk about all of her medical issues. It was the most bizarre thing ever.

I thought this is what AA meant, by being kind, loving, tolerant, patient, and being of service.

I called an AA friend on the drive home who is also in Alanon. She told me about Alanon's "be kind, be brief, be gone." She said I should've been kind and tolerant for a short while, and then left.

I commend you for living your own life. You owe absolutely no one an explanation for going no contact with your parents. You have to save yourself. People in that much pain will drag you down in their own misery and pain. It's really sad and unfortunate. You can "detach with love", which is another thing my AA/Alanon friend taught me.

Your growth is tremendously inspiring. Anytime we are able to look within at our own thoughts and behavior, is where the growth starts. We can't have growth without pain. Just like my profile icon here says "every flower must grow through dirt." Keep going. You're likely growing by leaps and bounds right now and will see it all in hindsight.

I used to think I had zero ability to fix my life, because that was the lie that was placed in my head by my parents and siblings. They'd say it to my face, or behind my back. Constantly. I believed it. They needed me to be in that role, so they could feel superior, make fun of me, and then have to "fix" me--all to feed their extremely insecure little egos.

With the help of therapists, I was finally able to see what a lie all those messages were. They helped me finally see that the truth is, I am very capable of living my own life without them, and I can fix my own life. That made them livid at first, when I stopped telling them all my personal and private stuff. I was their "supply" and I was taking that away from them. I used to get angry when people didn't fix my own life--not because I "expected" people to fix my life, but because I was so full of self-hate that I couldn't fix my life and everyone else could fix their own lives. My family wanted me to "expect" them to fix my life, because it gave them a sense of power and control that was their drug of choice. This was me back then:

And this is me now: I am a mature woman of dignity, calm, inner peace, inner strength, thick skin, drama free, clear mind, inner reflection, and growth. I don't stand for people who put me down to bring themselves up. I do not allow toxic or abusive people in my life, family or otherwise. My personal life is no one's business but mine. If you don't respect me, I show you the door and wish you well.

That being said..... I didn't exactly learn any of that in AA. I learned it indirectly through the painful growth of my step work, but it took therapy to to nudge me in this new direction. Being of service includes being of service to ME. That's not selfish. That's self-care.

I just read this paragraph now, I missed it. :-) And I agree whole-heartedly.

Were you taught this in AA, or figured it out for yourself? I think in some AA groups there is way too much emphasis on "sin", "character defects", and "serving others". Maybe it depends on who organized the group. Maybe their experiences were different. The person who started my former home group admits he was spoiled, well cared for, and not abused. But he seems to think we all had that growing up, as did my former sponsor. As someone said to me in another thread, "there's an awful lot of projection going on in AA." I truly think that has a difference on the various AA teachings.

lizinaussie

I recently read some where that the kind of religious zeal about focusing on your sins rather than on a compassionate gracefilled god is a sign of codependency.

Is certainly true in my case. Walking the path with that loving higher power is recovery in a nutshell and being rid of old ideas, especially that my higher power is just sitting round waiting for me to mess up so he/she can punish me.

fini

just want to say hello and welcome, lizinaussie.

Pathwaytofree

Hi Lizinaussie,

I am so curious where you read that? I have a relative who raised her kids this way unfortunately. She left AA, and became a religious zealot. I hadn't even thought that it was a sign of codependency. Can you explain that further?

I had the same experience. It changed my life and was the backbone of my step work and recovery.

Pathwaytofree

I just found a post it note in one of my big books. I wish I knew where I heard this, but I thought I'd share it here:

Be strong, but not rude
Be kind, but not weak
Be bold, but not a bully
Be humble, but not timid
Be proud, but not arrogant.