Untreated Alcoholism vs Depression? What are the symptoms of untreated alcoholism? What are the symptoms of depression? How do you tell the difference? What would examples of each be? |
from my experience Alcohol drove me into deep depression.. Alcohol is technically central nervous system depressant. Depressants work by slowing down respiratory and heart rate. The do this by affecting the neurotransmitter gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA). Neurotransmitters are the brain chemicals which provide communication between brain cells. GABA works by decreasing brain activity. Most depressants operate in this same manner. |
great question page 52 describes a few systoms of alcoholism beside being drunk We were having trouble with personal relationships, we couldn't control our emotional natures, we were a prey to misery and depression, we couldn't make a living, we had a feeling of uselessness, we were full of fear, we were unhappy, we couldn't seem to be of real help to other people add the deeper things of anger,fear,selfish behaviors,selfish motives,etc add kind, considerate, patient, generous; even modest and self-sacrificing at times plus they may be mean, egotistical, selfish and dishonest. A wide variety. about depression,I have heard it said clinical depression does not respond to the 12 steps.We are alcoholics,not trained in this area.I failed to recognize it in 2 past sponsee`s before and later they killed themselves. we are not Dr`s,just alcoholics.Thats why I think going to get outside help saves lives. in the 2 guys who had the depression who killed them selves,they wouldn`t touch the steps.One appeared to think about it and the other dismissed it quickly.Now if someone asks me to sponsor them,and does not want to work the steps,I suggest they get outside help. depression versus sitting on the pity pot are sometimes confused as the same.I think they are separate.I was depressed a lot early on and sat on my self pity pot a lot.But...the people in AA got me going in the steps and a few other things and it changed my attitude.Over time,both disappeared |
I had a elderly lady friend who was a great lady.Her husband was a well known Dr. She had been sober quite a long time. one day I noticed she hadn`t been around much.When I did see her,she looked different.Her appearance was worst,she was letting herself go, not dressing as nice as she used too,her hair,etc Then one day I got a call,she was in the hospital,she had stabbed herself and later on died.Looking back,we could see where she was slipping away.It is hard to spot at the time,but look for outwards appearances ,sometimes IT is a sign of a worsting inner state |
I would say just don't let someone else's experience in AA be YOUR gospel. I think AA can be really damaging to people with trauma issues. The Steps can open up a lot of wounds, and cannot necessarily repair them when the people doing the "teaching" don't know what they are doing - and like you observed yourself, people who sponsor or who are merely in the rooms are not trained mental health professionals. What is the impetus behind your question this time, PTF? |
Originally Posted by Tommyh
(Post 6900048)
I had a elderly lady friend who was a great lady.Her husband was a well known Dr. She had been sober quite a long time. one day I noticed she hadn`t been around much.When I did see her,she looked different.Her appearance was worst,she was letting herself go, not dressing as nice as she used too,her hair,etc Then one day I got a call,she was in the hospital,she had stabbed herself and later on died.Looking back,we could see where she was slipping away.It is hard to spot at the time,but look for outwards appearances ,sometimes IT is a sign of a worsting inner state I am sorry people didn't catch the signs to help her. I am sorry she couldn't help herself. I bet she tried to. |
Originally Posted by biminiblue
(Post 6900055)
I would say just don't let someone else's experience in AA be YOUR gospel. I think AA can be really damaging to people with trauma issues. This needs to be shouted from a mountain top. I agree so much. I am so thankful that my therapist said to me the other day that she thinks I'm doing a great job being a sponsor seeing how I separate sponsorship from therapy, and how I always tell my sponsees stuff like "that's not an issue for a sponsor, that's an issue for a therapist", etc. There must be strong clear lines between the two. My only role is taking someone through the steps. I also make clear that step work does not solve mental illness. I had a sponsor who didn't want to continue IOP and only do her step work. I told her I'd stop working with her if she stopped the IOP on her own accord. The steps help with alcoholism, nothing more. The Steps can open up a lot of wounds, and cannot necessarily repair them when the people doing the "teaching" don't know what they are doing - and like you observed yourself, people who sponsor or who are merely in the rooms are not trained mental health professionals. What is the impetus behind your question this time, PTF? -Some people stop drinking and their depression/anxiety goes away, which means the alcohol was causing it directly or both directly and indirectly. These are the types who do very well with "don't drink and go to meetings." -Some people stop drinking and their depression/anxiety worsen, because they were using alcohol to self medicate. Alcohol was the solution until it became a problem. These are us types who get worse from "don't drink and go to meetings". -Some people stop drinking and their depression/anxiety goes away when they have a spiritual awakening from doing the step work. -Some people stop drinking, have a spiritual awakening from the step work, and their depression/anxiety comes back because they're suffering from untreated alcoholism. -Some people stop drinking, have a spiritual awakening from the step work, but their depression/anxiety comes back because they're suffering from clinical depression/anxiety. So if it comes back, is it a spiritual issue or a mental health issue? How to tell? |
If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Keep seeking, PTF. AA is not the only answer, and for that matter neither is any one particular book, pastor, therapist, or friend. Seek. You'll find. The Steps lead to a spiritual awakening. Then trust - through using it. You have a lot of wisdom, and I think if you tap into it and trust yourself you'll be of great service. |
Originally Posted by Tommyh
(Post 6900039)
great question page 52 describes a few systoms of alcoholism beside being drunk We were having trouble with personal relationships, we couldn't control our emotional natures, we were a prey to misery and depression, we couldn't make a living, we had a feeling of uselessness, we were full of fear, we were unhappy, we couldn't seem to be of real help to other people add the deeper things of anger,fear,selfish behaviors,selfish motives,etc add kind, considerate, patient, generous; even modest and self-sacrificing at times plus they may be mean, egotistical, selfish and dishonest. A wide variety. about depression,I have heard it said clinical depression does not respond to the 12 steps.We are alcoholics,not trained in this area.I failed to recognize it in 2 past sponsee`s before and later they killed themselves. we are not Dr`s,just alcoholics.Thats why I think going to get outside help saves lives. in the 2 guys who had the depression who killed them selves,they wouldn`t touch the steps.One appeared to think about it and the other dismissed it quickly.Now if someone asks me to sponsor them,and does not want to work the steps,I suggest they get outside help. I should've done my 4th step with my therapist. He tried to suggest it, but I wouldn't listen because I drank the AA koolaide that this was MY fault I wasn't getting through my 4th step. Oh and instead of seeing the trauma in my resentments, I was told wow you don't seem that angry, yet look at how many resentments you have. You are selfish because you wanted everyone to act the way you wanted them to act. Um, no. It's not selfish if you don't want to be abused. How in the world is that SELFISH? If someone helped me to see that the people who harmed me weren't doing it because it was personal, even though they made it out to be like that, it wasn't my fault, etc., then that would've been a hell out of lot more helpful. depression versus sitting on the pity pot are sometimes confused as the same.I think they are separate.I was depressed a lot early on and sat on my self pity pot a lot.But...the people in AA got me going in the steps and a few other things and it changed my attitude.Over time,both disappeared I am glad your self-pity and depression disappeared, Tommy. You certainly have given a lot of wonderful support to everyone here on SR. |
Originally Posted by biminiblue
(Post 6900090)
If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Keep seeking, PTF. AA is not the only answer, and for that matter neither is any one particular book, pastor, therapist, or friend. Seek. You'll find. |
Originally Posted by Dave42001
(Post 6899486)
from my experience Alcohol drove me into deep depression.. Alcohol is technically central nervous system depressant. Depressants work by slowing down respiratory and heart rate. The do this by affecting the neurotransmitter gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA). Neurotransmitters are the brain chemicals which provide communication between brain cells. GABA works by decreasing brain activity. Most depressants operate in this same manner. |
What's really hard to understand is that when talking with my sponsees, I can compartimentalize and go into sponsor mode so well and really help them. I'm even helping a woman whose sponsor can't deal with her, and I'm able to spend a few minutes telling her what she needs to hear (many times it's a firm "take this to your therapist", "the step work isn't the be all end all" or giving her more detailed step work instructions that she needs.) Sometimes I amaze myself at what I say. I see that I really get the spiritual stuff and experienced it. The feedback I get from them is sometimes quite surprising, and makes me feel like a fraud because of how crappy I'm feeling right now. How can I so get the spiritual stuff and be a good sponsor yet feel like this? |
don`t be too concerned about the feelings,just keep doing the right actions by helping others.Sometimes the feelings can stop us from helping others. Bill W said I soon found that when all other measure failed, work with another alcoholic would save the day. Many times I have gone to my old hospital in despair. On talking to a man there, I would be amazingly lifted up and set on my feet. I believe Bill felt better physically and mentally after trying to help others. So if it comes back, is it a spiritual issue or a mental health issue? How to tell? I wish I had that answer,in that case,maybe it is better to go talk to a professional and see what turns up We can`t fix everything,but we can help others stay sober as they seek answers and help for other stuff like There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest. so,thats what I try to do,help others stay sober by the 12 steps everything else is up to people more qualified and them |
Originally Posted by Tommyh
(Post 6900163)
don`t be too concerned about the feelings,just keep doing the right actions by helping others.Sometimes the feelings can stop us from helping others. Bill W said I soon found that when all other measure failed, work with another alcoholic would save the day. Many times I have gone to my old hospital in despair. On talking to a man there, I would be amazingly lifted up and set on my feet. I believe Bill felt better physically and mentally after trying to help others. Didn't Bill also suffer from depression, or was it depression that was part of his alcoholism? So if it comes back, is it a spiritual issue or a mental health issue? How to tell? I wish I had that answer,in that case,maybe it is better to go talk to a professional and see what turns up We can`t fix everything,but we can help others stay sober as they seek answers and help for other stuff like There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest. Who was he referring to here? I guess I'm still confused. So a person can recover but still have an underlying issue? so,thats what I try to do,help others stay sober by the 12 steps everything else is up to people more qualified and them |
Originally Posted by biminiblue
(Post 6900090)
The Steps lead to a spiritual awakening. Then trust - through using it. You have a lot of wisdom, and I think if you tap into it and trust yourself you'll be of great service. |
Good discussion. The problem I am having is with the term "untreated alcoholism". Alcoholism is not "treated" in AA, it is addressed. Substance use disorders and alcohol use disorders are treated by treatment professionals. Depression is a diagnosable condition, alcoholism is not. Substance and alcohol use disorders are frequently the focus of treatment and are often related to each other. This relationship, however, is not the same for every individual who has both of these conditions. I think you do a good job of pointing this out Pathwaytofree. Bill W's depression continued well into the 1950's. More than 20 years after he got sober. Lets be clear. Bill did not get sober as a result of the steps. He got sober as a result of a spiritual experience/awakening. His experience/awakening did not lift his depression. There were few options for the treatment of depression when Bill got sober. Thankfully that has changed enormously. There's a great deal that can be done to treat depression, and everyone who suffers from it should be made aware of this. Sponsors should be guides for working the steps. They can also frequently be very good spriritual advisors and friends. But they should not attempt to act as therapists. Thanks for a good discussion Pathwaytofree. |
Originally Posted by Pathwaytofree
(Post 6900079)
Thank you, biminiblue for another helpful post. This goes along with what you wrote in my other thread about how common projection is in AA. I think AA can be really damaging to people with trauma issues. This needs to be shouted from a mountain top. I agree so much. I am so thankful that my therapist said to me the other day that she thinks I'm doing a great job being a sponsor seeing how I separate sponsorship from therapy, and how I always tell my sponsees stuff like "that's not an issue for a sponsor, that's an issue for a therapist", etc. There must be strong clear lines between the two. My only role is taking someone through the steps. I also make clear that step work does not solve mental illness. I had a sponsor who didn't want to continue IOP and only do her step work. I told her I'd stop working with her if she stopped the IOP on her own accord. The steps help with alcoholism, nothing more. I agree. You stated this so well. I struggled a lot with a previous sponsor who disagreed with my therapist regarding amends and if I listened to her and not my therapist, would have caused me a lot of harm. I've had other sponsors poke fun at my going to therapy, calling it immature, etc. I've heard of others who think you're not truly sober if you take meds for anxiety or depression, etc. Sponsors are not trained mental health professionals!!! And sponsors in AA need to stop bad mouthing mental health professionals. I'm trying to tell what the difference is for myself so I can figure out what needs to be worked on--from a spiritual angle or depression/anxiety outside of alcoholism angle. I don't know how to tell. -Some people stop drinking and their depression/anxiety goes away, which means the alcohol was causing it directly or both directly and indirectly. These are the types who do very well with "don't drink and go to meetings." -Some people stop drinking and their depression/anxiety worsen, because they were using alcohol to self medicate. Alcohol was the solution until it became a problem. These are us types who get worse from "don't drink and go to meetings". -Some people stop drinking and their depression/anxiety goes away when they have a spiritual awakening from doing the step work. -Some people stop drinking, have a spiritual awakening from the step work, and their depression/anxiety comes back because they're suffering from untreated alcoholism. -Some people stop drinking, have a spiritual awakening from the step work, but their depression/anxiety comes back because they're suffering from clinical depression/anxiety. So if it comes back, is it a spiritual issue or a mental health issue? How to tell? I have never allowed people in AA to treat me that under the guise of being "helpful." Rude behavior is rude behavior. As far as depression being a spiritual or metal health issue: I've been unhappy, upset, angry but I don't suffer from depression. I don't wake up feeling down for no reason. When people in AA tell me they suffer from depression, anxiety or whatever and a doctor has prescribed medication I say good for them. I hope it works. I'm not a medical doctor, therapist , marriage councilor or financial adviser. And most in AA aren't either. Unfortunately that doesn't stop some from offering advice on matters they know little whether its solicited or not. |
Interesting discussion.. My depression preceded my alcoholism. I first dealt with (undiagnosed but it checks all the boxes) clinical depression at the age of 12, years before my first drink. To hear it implied that if you're sober and depressed you haven't adequately "treated" your alcoholism, is sort of like adding insult to injury. The steps imo, are a good set of guidelines for living a happy and healthy life in general.. I still do not however (at least for myself personally) see the connection between having a spiritual awakening and the "cure" for addiction, beyond the concepts of control and non-attachment. Many spiritual people are addicts, many non-spiritual people are not. |
Originally Posted by awuh1
(Post 6900389)
The problem I am having is with the term "untreated alcoholism". Alcoholism is not "treated" in AA, it is addressed. Substance use disorders and alcohol use disorders are treated by treatment professionals. Depression is a diagnosable condition, alcoholism is not. Alcoholism is not. I've heard circuit speakers say that newbies often appear to be bipolar, and in the treatment center business he sees them being given meds when all they really needed was a spiritual awakening. So how do we tell the difference, if they present so similarly? Alcoholism is a mental illness that a spiritual solution helps people to recover from. What other mental illnesses can people recover from spiritually? It's interesting to discuss. Alcoholism is a mental illness that looks a lot like other mental illnesses, so how do we differentiate? Substance and alcohol use disorders are frequently the focus of treatment and are often related to each other. This relationship, however, is not the same for every individual who has both of these conditions. I think you do a good job of pointing this out Pathwaytofree. Bill W's depression continued well into the 1950's. More than 20 years after he got sober. Lets be clear. Bill did not get sober as a result of the steps. He got sober as a result of a spiritual experience/awakening. His experience/awakening did not lift his depression There were few options for the treatment of depression when Bill got sober. Thankfully that has changed enormously. There's a great deal that can be done to treat depression, and everyone who suffers from it should be made aware of this. Sponsors should be guides for working the steps. They can also frequently be very good spriritual advisors and friends. But they should not attempt to act as therapists. Thanks for a good discussion Pathwaytofree. |
Originally Posted by Ken33xx
(Post 6900694)
I have never allowed people in AA to treat me that under the guise of being "helpful." Rude behavior is rude behavior. As far as depression being a spiritual or metal health issue: I've been unhappy, upset, angry but I don't suffer from depression. Thanks Ken. This is actually very helpful. So this is how you would differentiate "the bedevilments" from page 52 of the big book, with depression? I don't wake up feeling down for no reason. When people in AA tell me they suffer from depression, anxiety or whatever and a doctor has prescribed medication I say good for them.I hope it works. I'm not a medical doctor, therapist , marriage councilor or financial adviser. And most in AA aren't either. Unfortunately that doesn't stop some from offering advice on matters they know little whether its solicited or not. Thanks for your input, Ken. |
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