Pathwaytofree

Rjyerkes,
Thanks for being so open and honest. It reminded me that I had these things before I drank. However, at the moment of my first drink, alcohol sure seemed like a way to beat my depression and anxiety, even though I didn't know what those terms were back then.

That's great you were honest with yourself and with her.

I probably would've gotten more out of my antidepressants if I hadn't drank.

It's frustrating that it takes so long, I know.

Wow! You certainly have the willingness to try anything to help yourself. That is very inspirational. Which of these did you find most helpful? That's great you have a wonderful supportive partner.

I'm sorry you still do.... It sounds like you've really given it your all to live with these things.

I understand this. Unless he experienced it himself personally, he probably wouldn't be able to understand it.

I was trained that way, too, but just in less harsh words. You know it's not true, though, right?

That's not true. He's likely scared because he wants to be able to help you but he doesn't understand what you are experiencing, because he's never experienced it himself.

Suffering from the things you were diagnosed with does NOT mean you are "effed up". Mental illnesses are illnesses of the brain, just like Diabetes is an illness of the pancreas. You are not your diseases. I read somewhere that instead of using the term "addict", people are using the term "person with an addiction". I kinda like that idea, because it shows that being an addict is not their identity. It is an illness that they have; not an illness that they are.

I give people like you and your husband a tremendous amount of respect for being able to parent differently in spite of what you both went through. Your son is lucky to have you both.

Thank you! That's very kind. I send them back to you as well. :-)

Pathwaytofree

Thanks, Bullwinkle. I appreciate the info you're providing here. I was unaware that he took LSD for his depression.

Does anyone know when Dr. Silkworth in The Doctor's Opinion talks about psychiatric care from back then, what it was? I wonder if he was able to tell the difference between the real alcoholic who was depressed, versus the real alcoholic who also had clinical depression.

Thank you for sharing very interesting history. :-) I didn't knokw that Clarence Snyder had the first meeting. I always thought Dr. Bob's bible studies became the first meeting when the big book of AA was published.

Pathwaytofree

Thanks Bullwinkle. I stand corrected. The original manuscript did use the words "suggested". I could've sworn he used the word "must", but decided to soften it.

This is an excellent and important point to bring up.

I'm not sure I understand this point? Please explain. Thanks. :-)

Pathwaytofree

Hi rjyerkes,
I really appreciate your sharing your opinion. It's totally fine you haven't been to AA. AA isn't the only way to get sober. :-)

That is an excellent point.

Someone else mentioned this book to me recently, and it sounded fascinating. I will add this to my list. Thank you for mentioning it. :-)

You have no idea how much this paragraph alone has helped me.

That's been a long ongoing debate, but I see things all so much clearer now with regards to its strengths and limitations.

Thank you.

Pathwaytofree

Thanks Ken. This is fascinating. I never read anything like this before. It reminds me of a man who used to go to my home group. He didn't have a spiritual awakening after doing his step work. My sponsor said "that means he missed something". I think if I remember correctly, he had trouble connecting with God. I'd see him at our meeting and at other meetings, and he always looked so sad. I wonder if he was suffering from clinical depression in addition to alcoholism and that's what it was. Not that he missed something. Perhaps it's like what Tommyh said, that people with clinical depression often have difficulty with the spiritual piece.

I really appreciate your saying that, because the AA program tends to be very black and white. And people in AA are very black and white when they speak about recovery, etc.

This was really fascinating to read. Thank you for sharing this Ken. It helps me see Bill W in a different light. He was certainly still trying to spiritually grow even after he had stopped drinking. He wasn't afraid to continue seeking with an open mind.

Bullwinkle1944

awuh1 writes>>>Bullwinkle1944, I need to do some fact checking<<<

Checking the facts is your prerogative, history is frequently distorted, in this context, there is no fact, there’s just opinion and preference. “Kurtz asserts” and so on… is a prime example of opinion and preference.

awuh1 writes>>>Bills initial use of the drug was under their medical supervision. Again, you state that "Bill took LSD for himself". Do you have any facts to back up your assertion? <<<

I don’t need facts, as you just wrote that he took LSD, Yes, I said Bill took LSD for himself. It appears, that because I hadn’t written that he took LSD under medical supervision that I’m criticizing him. To add a thought, this was his attempt find a solution for his depression.

awuh1 writes>>>I think this is an important point because Bill is often criticized for his use of the drug without putting his behavior into a proper historical context.

I read your posting in order, to keep it in context. Maybe I’m wrong, but only you would know your intent, but this sentence being the finish, appears to be the crux of your argument / debate. I am suggesting that maybe this sentence is a bit passive aggressive based on your assumption of my intent / sentiment.
.
BTW, my very close friend, an AA fellowship member, was a clinical pharmacologist and a neurosurgeon that worked @ Lawrence Livermore Labs. He’s the MD that discovered that hyperactive people, especially children have a reverse reaction to amphetamine, it calms them down. With that said, my MD friend was also involved in LSD experiments and worked with Albert Hofmann, as well as many other scientists all over the world.

Bullwinkle1944

Pathwayfree writes>>>Interesting. So if it wasn't a "disease", would it be an "illness"? Wouldn't that still be the same thing?

What is the popular theory as to way rehab centers have a recidivism rate of over 90%?<<<

Alcoholism causes disease, just as tobacco smoking causes disease (#1 killer), yet notice the nicotine addiction isn’t reference as a disease.

The actual disease is dis-ease (uneasiness) of feelings of low self-esteem engendered by not being enough, not fitting in socially, isolationism, not feeling that one’s smart enough, self-loathing for not being physically attractive or intelligent or both. Bipolar Affective Disorder ADD / ADHD, PTSD, OCD, the list goes on.

As it says on page 23, AA text, “the main problem of the alcoholic centers in the mind rather than the body” page 35 in the AA text, “So we shall describe some of the mental states that precede a relapse into drinking, for obviously this is the crux of the problem”. It not the first drink or the last drink or any drink in-between, it’s the mental states that precede drinking.

Non-substance addicts like gambling addicts change their body chemistry by their thinking process / mind.

Many addictions take numerous attempts before one reaches then bottom and surrenders.

Bullwinkle1944

Pathwaytofree writes>>>Thank you for sharing very interesting history. :-) I didn't knokw that Clarence Snyder had the first meeting. I always thought Dr. Bob's bible studies became the first meeting when the big book of AA was published.<<<

The reason Clarence started the meeting was as he told Dr. Bob most of the people he was helping with their alcoholism were Roman Catholic and they were not allowed to attend a non- Roman Catholic event of any sort. Dr. Bob argued with him saying in so many words that Clarence was insulting the Oxford Group, due to they being very accommodating by allowing alcoholics to attend, Clarence said there’s nothing he could do but start their own meeting as said, and as I had shared with the sober recovery forum, that he’s calling it Alcoholics Anonymous from the title of the text.

BTW, Dr. Bob was a Christian zealot and I probably would not gotten along with him, but I have compassion for him, as I have for any human being that feels they have the Capital “T” true for recovery based on their belief system. Conversely, I probably would have gotten along with Bill W. because he was much more open minded than Dr. Bob. This is an example of Dr. Bob’s close mindedness and I feel zealot arrogance from his story DOCTOR BOB’S NIGHTMARE , If you think you are an atheist, an agnostic, a skeptic, or have any other form of intellectual pride which keeps you from accepting what is in this book, I feel sorry for you. If you still think you are strong enough to beat the game alone, that is your affair. But if you really and truly want to quit drinking liquor for good and all, and sincerely feel that you must have some help, we know that we have an answer for you. It never fails if you go about it with one half the zeal you have been in the habit of showing when getting another drink. Your Heavenly Father will never let you down!

AA is a suggested program of recovery and steps 3 and 11 are written “God as we understood Him” and as I shared recently from “AS BILLS SEES IT” PAGE 95, 3 and 11 was written as such due to the atheist and agnostics, Here the long version, see of last paragraph, last sentence When the Big Book was being planned, some members thought it ought to be Christian in the doctrinal sense. Others had no objection to the use of the word “God,” but wanted to avoid doctrinal issues. Spirituality, yes. Religion, no. Still others wanted a psychological book, to lure the alcoholic in. Once in, he could take God or leave him alone as he wished. To the rest of us this was shocking, but happily we listened. Our group conscience was at work to construct the most acceptable and effective book possible. Every voice was playing its appointed part. “ Our atheists and agnostics widened our gateway so that all who suffer might pass through, regardless of their belief of lack of belief.” AA Comes of Age, pp. 162, 163, 167.

Bullwinkle1944

Pathwaytofree writes>>>

I'm not sure I understand this point? Please explain. Thanks. :-)

I practice TM and ones doesn't ask in meditation...very simple, the AA text used a Western European interpretation of meditation, as practiced it asks for results. In yogic and Buddhist philosophy, I don’t meditate for a specific result, staying open to all possibilities, so I don’t ask for anything, especially in the material world. From what I’ve seen in the American version of prayer, however, plenty of danger exists when the focus is on the outcome, rather than the simple act of being still and not living in the results for wants. The wanting never gets it, it only creates more wanting.

Pathwaytofree

Someone in my network shared this very same experience recently. Addiction is very illogical...

Thanks for mentioning this. Sometimes it's like a catch-22 in that because of the very nature of depression, it's difficult to do what you need to do to keep in remission.
This is very important to mention and important for everyone sponsoring people to realize.

Again, this is really important and I'm thankful that people on this thread are posting this.

My guess is that it's very likely, because of self-medicating.

Pathwaytofree

Thanks Tomsteve. I guess clinical depression is more complicated than alcoholism. Too bad there's no "12 steps to recover from clinical depression." ;-)

tomsteve

i said that comment because i had no clue i had depression until doagnosed with it. i wasnt aware many of the symptoms/signs i had were related to depression.
i thought depression was all gloom and doom stuff, but not so.

Pathwaytofree

Thank you for the reminder of keeping it simple!!
That being said, "restless, irritable, discontent" sounds a lot like Bipolar 2. :-/

This reminds me of a quote I used to hear in my home group. It went something like this: "You're not an alcoholic because you're depressed, you're depressed because you're an alcoholic!"

It's just another reminder that there's "depressed" and there's "clinical depression" and we must make that distinction in AA before it does more harm than good.

Pathwaytofree

Bullwinkle, your posts are very enlightening.

So... if it makes more sense to use the term "illness", whey then is the word "disease" used?

Who was it who created the spin on the term disease to be "dis-ease", because although that makes sense to the alcoholic, I don't think the medical community meant it to be used like that. It's an interesting topic of discussion.

I'm glad you brought up gambling, because I think any addiction must change body/brain chemistry. Gamblers just don't have a physical allergy like alcoholics do, but isn't it otherwise the same exact "illness"/"disease" being that it centers in the mind? It is all about what's going on in the mind before, as you pointed out.

Pathwaytofree

Thanks Tomsteve. I had a similar experience.

Bullwinkle1944

Pathwaytofree writes>>>Gamblers just don't have a physical allergy like alcoholics do,<<<

This myth comes from Dr. Silkworth in the the AA text Doctors Opinion.

An allergy by definition is a reaction of the immune system to a given chemical. Allergies are easily detected by a skin test. If "alcoholism" were an allergy it could easily be diagnosed by a skin test and no screening tools such as the MAST test would be needed. However, there is no skin test for people who sometimes drink too much or drink alcoholically. There must be an antigen and there isn't one.

tomsteve

tomsteve writes>>> ( )not all allergies can be diagnosed with a skin test.
its much more complicated than that for quite a few allergies.

Bullwinkle1944

tomsteve writes>>>not all allergies can be diagnosed with a skin test.
its much more complicated than that for quite a few allergies. <<<

It's very simple, there must be an antigen and there isn't. Google the science, there's a lot that debunks this allergy idea.

I use the AA text and 12 X12 to help others, as well as other AA literature, all are viable, but there are mistakes and misnomers in the AA text based on the science from 80 years ago.

Andante

Hey ICON -- I mean Bullwinkle: Just to point out that unlike on the old About Alcoholism forums, here on SR there is a useful quote function that will save you time and make your posts more legible. It's at the bottom right corner of each post.

Also just to say that it's good to see you're still kickin' -- I'm over 5 years sober nowadays thanks in part to your guidance on the old About forum. I may have had issues at times with the messenger, but never with the message

Please continue this most interesting discussion. I have my own thoughts on the matter but don't feel ready to contribute them yet.

rjyerkes

That's a good point. When my gyno asked me if I thought I was depressed, it was my anger that tipped her off. My caustic humor, sarcasm and cynicism was my armor and my coping mechanism. That's it. That's all I had back then.

After being on antidepressants for nearly a decade and having INCREDIBLE success, I began to get more and more tired. Eventually the Doc said that it was my meds not working anymore and switched me to another type. No other symptoms, just constantly sleepy.

I'm in a tricky spot (or my Doc is) cause I also have terrible seasonal affective disorder and live in Oregon. So my new meds came in late summer when we knew the SAD wasn't in play.

Depression is so complicated and multi layered.

Coming off alcohol makes me feel agitated, annoyed, bored, sorry for myself, and exposed but it gets better as time goes on and I can still function fairly normally. I still enjoy things.

Active depression makes me feel hopeless, helpless, exhausted, self loathing, sad, dark, overwhelmed, pathetic, worthless, unlovable, unlikable, terrified, disinterested, disconnected, completely vulnerable and exposed, too tired to even notice things like a messy house or unwashed body. Literally, I don't even notice my very self or my own house/surroundings. Brushing my teeth is like climbing a mountain. I enjoy nothing. I can't function at all.

Giving up alcohol feels like having all my best friends move far away and now they're all having fun without me.

Depression feels like my husband and son have died and life is meaningless and I am without hope. Nothing matters.

I am so incredibly thankful for my meds. Life changing for me and my loved ones