AA meeting conduct--flagrant & repeated stealing
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 1
AA meeting conduct--flagrant & repeated stealing
Hi all,
I'm new to the program, in early sobriety. A long-standing meeting member has been stealing collections, seeking financial support from members, taking advantage of the sponsor/sponsee relationship in that he will ask to borrow money from sponsees while doing step work with them. This is apparently a somewhat recognized pattern of behavior that will occur, abate, return again. This latest cycle sounds like the worst it's ever been over the years: this person made himself treasurer of a meeting, pocketed the collections, the meeting space was almost taken away due to the rent not being paid, etc. AA is self-governing and this person I feel is "hiding" within the program. He is "sober," i.e. not drinking or drugging, but he is known to be a gambling addict. He stayed away from meetings briefly due to the mounting hostility toward him, is now back, not only getting his hand up but chairing meetings as if he is Bill Wilson himself. His presence feels incredibly dangerous and toxic to me and I avoid the meetings I am afraid I will see him at, but I fear for the program, and especially any newcomers. This person is absolutely shameless in asking for handouts and can quote the Big Book like a paid professional, but I am disappointed and enraged by some long-term people's response to this person: "AA isn't a wellness convention, this kind of thing happens, oh him? yeah he does that." Really? What if the one meeting a new person had the courage to attend was cancelled? What if you were new and shaky and your sponsor decided to lay his financial hardships and problems with other addictions at your feet? And you left the program rather than voice your discomfort? I read the steps and traditions and have spoken folks to Central Services, but just don't know how much can be done. No restitution has been made, though this person speaks at meetings about having some amends to get to. Stealing is a crime, correct? So anywhere outside of an AA meeting you would be shown the door and possibly prosecuted I think. I don't doubt he would still be stealing if collection baskets hadn't been pried out of his hands. This stealing went on for many months, so not a moment of weakness kind of thing. Well, even if you don't have any words of advice for me, thank you for listening. Peace!
ODAAT,
Tina xo
I'm new to the program, in early sobriety. A long-standing meeting member has been stealing collections, seeking financial support from members, taking advantage of the sponsor/sponsee relationship in that he will ask to borrow money from sponsees while doing step work with them. This is apparently a somewhat recognized pattern of behavior that will occur, abate, return again. This latest cycle sounds like the worst it's ever been over the years: this person made himself treasurer of a meeting, pocketed the collections, the meeting space was almost taken away due to the rent not being paid, etc. AA is self-governing and this person I feel is "hiding" within the program. He is "sober," i.e. not drinking or drugging, but he is known to be a gambling addict. He stayed away from meetings briefly due to the mounting hostility toward him, is now back, not only getting his hand up but chairing meetings as if he is Bill Wilson himself. His presence feels incredibly dangerous and toxic to me and I avoid the meetings I am afraid I will see him at, but I fear for the program, and especially any newcomers. This person is absolutely shameless in asking for handouts and can quote the Big Book like a paid professional, but I am disappointed and enraged by some long-term people's response to this person: "AA isn't a wellness convention, this kind of thing happens, oh him? yeah he does that." Really? What if the one meeting a new person had the courage to attend was cancelled? What if you were new and shaky and your sponsor decided to lay his financial hardships and problems with other addictions at your feet? And you left the program rather than voice your discomfort? I read the steps and traditions and have spoken folks to Central Services, but just don't know how much can be done. No restitution has been made, though this person speaks at meetings about having some amends to get to. Stealing is a crime, correct? So anywhere outside of an AA meeting you would be shown the door and possibly prosecuted I think. I don't doubt he would still be stealing if collection baskets hadn't been pried out of his hands. This stealing went on for many months, so not a moment of weakness kind of thing. Well, even if you don't have any words of advice for me, thank you for listening. Peace!
ODAAT,
Tina xo
Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
perhaps the meeting itself is not following the guidelines that DO provide a level of governance? one cannot just MAKE themselves treasurer, that would be done by vote, at a business meeting.
one option a group does have is a "group conscience" should a member be considered too dangerous, too threatening, or other manners of "too much".
meetings are not perfect. people are not perfect. an individual always has the option to attend other meetings.
one option a group does have is a "group conscience" should a member be considered too dangerous, too threatening, or other manners of "too much".
meetings are not perfect. people are not perfect. an individual always has the option to attend other meetings.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 6,902
Perhaps this post would get more responses from people in 12-step fellowships in the 12-step area rather than the Newcomers area.
Just a suggestion, as most Newcomers haven't been to any / many meetings (yet).
Can I just say that this is a fairly unusual situation and shouldn't put anyone off attending meetings themselves.
BB
Just a suggestion, as most Newcomers haven't been to any / many meetings (yet).
Can I just say that this is a fairly unusual situation and shouldn't put anyone off attending meetings themselves.
BB
Blue Belt
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Soberville, USA
Posts: 4,174
Tsc,
Very scary. Sounds like he is a criminal type and preying on the kindness etc. of the AA family.
If the group tolerates it, it could escalate.
Confrontation by the group may be a good idea. Calling the cops would work too.
Most criminal types fear the cops.
Thanks.
Very scary. Sounds like he is a criminal type and preying on the kindness etc. of the AA family.
If the group tolerates it, it could escalate.
Confrontation by the group may be a good idea. Calling the cops would work too.
Most criminal types fear the cops.
Thanks.
Behold the power of NO
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: WA
Posts: 7,764
He might quack and quote the BB all he wants, his behavior is going against Tradition 8 and Traditions are generally addressed at the group conscience level.
Maybe someone else could step up to be treasurer as a start so he does not have access to the group $$ anymore. .. or more passive aggressive approach, find a way to start a discussion about Tradition 8 (longer form) at your next meeting.
Maybe someone else could step up to be treasurer as a start so he does not have access to the group $$ anymore. .. or more passive aggressive approach, find a way to start a discussion about Tradition 8 (longer form) at your next meeting.
Tradition Eight
166
“Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever non-
professional, but our service centers may employ special
workers.”
You can’t mix the Twelfth Step and money. Line of cleav-
age between voluntary Twelfth Step work and paid-for
services. A.A. could not function without full-time service
workers. Professional workers are not professional A.A.’s.
Relation of A.A. to industry, education, etc. Twelfth Step
work is never paid for, but those who labor in service for us
are worthy of their hire.
166
“Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever non-
professional, but our service centers may employ special
workers.”
You can’t mix the Twelfth Step and money. Line of cleav-
age between voluntary Twelfth Step work and paid-for
services. A.A. could not function without full-time service
workers. Professional workers are not professional A.A.’s.
Relation of A.A. to industry, education, etc. Twelfth Step
work is never paid for, but those who labor in service for us
are worthy of their hire.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 770
I dont have much to add. I would ask my sponsor which tradition this breaks. A similar thing happened in our area and one of our main meeting halls Almost got shut down because of it. I do know, as a newbie- I was probably spared a lot of pain due to people pointing out the sharks and predators in the rooms to me. Sometimes just outing someone is the best we can do for newcomers. Sadly, there may not Be much more to do
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
AA has never been a bastion of mental health. It's the nature of the fellowship . The best you can do is talk with others who regularly attend the meeting. See about voting the member in question out of his position as treasurer.
When I was new there were a few members who were bad news. Nobody warned me. You need to trust your instincts. If you're asked to do something you're not comfortable with you need to speak up.
Unfortunately many who are new are also vulnerable and there are those who will take advantage.
When I was new there were a few members who were bad news. Nobody warned me. You need to trust your instincts. If you're asked to do something you're not comfortable with you need to speak up.
Unfortunately many who are new are also vulnerable and there are those who will take advantage.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Originally Posted by DontRemember 
I've met a few 'old timer' con men at various meetings. To me they stand out like a sore thumb and should be called out on it. I just let newcomers know and mind my own,as I don't want any drama/legal crap.
The fellow got the feeling the old timer was getting off on this so he got up and split.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 131
Unfortunately it happens. I had a similar experience when i was new in, the treasurer had been pocketing most of the collections and then it came to a head so he stayed away for a short while then came back as if it had never happened. Its not the worse thing i have seen happening at AA by far so will be tolerated depending on the group and the position of the person who is stealing. There is not a lot you can do i'm afraid without risking ostracising yourself from the group and possibly other groups in the area by kicking up a stink.
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 8,674
This person would be banned from the large clubhouse I attend, through the decision of a group conscience meeting. This is an AA clubhouse large enough that it has standing group conscience meetings every month and issues disturbing members are brought up and voted on; it has various levels of suspension (ie 6 mo) up to the banning I mentioned.
From what you describe, pretty much everything is wrong with his behavior, to say the least and does not, to put it simply, contribute to the AA unity, among other things he is violating.
Surely others are as disturbed by this situation, as you rightly are, and you could inquire about how your AA group handles people behaving poorly enough to induce action.
One last thought- we do have to stay in our lanes, and while this is an extreme case I would have a very hard time with - I am a dedicated AAer with 23 mo sober this week- ultimately the decision is not mine to make about this person so a Step 1 about the situation would be what I need to do - I am powerless over this person except to the extent I participate in a group conscious or other action.
From what you describe, pretty much everything is wrong with his behavior, to say the least and does not, to put it simply, contribute to the AA unity, among other things he is violating.
Surely others are as disturbed by this situation, as you rightly are, and you could inquire about how your AA group handles people behaving poorly enough to induce action.
One last thought- we do have to stay in our lanes, and while this is an extreme case I would have a very hard time with - I am a dedicated AAer with 23 mo sober this week- ultimately the decision is not mine to make about this person so a Step 1 about the situation would be what I need to do - I am powerless over this person except to the extent I participate in a group conscious or other action.
It`s ok to stay sober
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Central NC
Posts: 20,902
I`ve seen this happen with a group.
They got a new treasure,and he just so happened to be a active gambling addict who went thru all their money,the prudent reserve,and the money they took in to pay their bills.
AA has a solution,it is called the principle of rotation.Vote someone else in and him out asap.Watch that clown when the basket has money in it too,he may try to help himself.
Tina,I suggest this:
Groups should hold treasures accountable to the group by giving a treasure report monthly.
That group I mentioned above,now uses a sheet to record the meeting donations,and it must be counted off by a second person and both initial it.
There is a place on the report about who leaves with the cash so the group knows how much they got,and who has it.I call it a paper trail.
I am a group treasure,and I have a small notebook I record every weeks donations,and balence it weekly,I leave the book at the meeting and snap a pic of the current page weekly in case the book gets missing.I have proof of how much we have.
what the group decides to do about the thief is up to them
They got a new treasure,and he just so happened to be a active gambling addict who went thru all their money,the prudent reserve,and the money they took in to pay their bills.
AA has a solution,it is called the principle of rotation.Vote someone else in and him out asap.Watch that clown when the basket has money in it too,he may try to help himself.
Tina,I suggest this:
Groups should hold treasures accountable to the group by giving a treasure report monthly.
That group I mentioned above,now uses a sheet to record the meeting donations,and it must be counted off by a second person and both initial it.
There is a place on the report about who leaves with the cash so the group knows how much they got,and who has it.I call it a paper trail.
I am a group treasure,and I have a small notebook I record every weeks donations,and balence it weekly,I leave the book at the meeting and snap a pic of the current page weekly in case the book gets missing.I have proof of how much we have.
what the group decides to do about the thief is up to them
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,781
I’ve seen it happen too.. I just try to keep my side of the street clean and mind my own business. If you’ve noticed it I’m sure some of the elders know about it.. what comes around goes around..
Don’t let this person keep you from attending meetings and being engaged in the fellowship. Talk to your sponsor about this or someone else, don’t let this interfere with your Soberity.. hang out with the old timers and stay in the middle of the herd and stay sober.. wishing you the best!!
Don’t let this person keep you from attending meetings and being engaged in the fellowship. Talk to your sponsor about this or someone else, don’t let this interfere with your Soberity.. hang out with the old timers and stay in the middle of the herd and stay sober.. wishing you the best!!
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Originally Posted by Dave42001
I’ve seen it happen too.. I just try to keep my side of the street clean and mind my own business. If you’ve noticed it I’m sure some of the elders know about it.. what comes around goes around..
Don’t let this person keep you from attending meetings and being engaged in the fellowship. Talk to your sponsor about this or someone else, don’t let this interfere with your Soberity.. hang out with the old timers and stay in the middle of the herd and stay sober.. wishing you the best!!
Don’t let this person keep you from attending meetings and being engaged in the fellowship. Talk to your sponsor about this or someone else, don’t let this interfere with your Soberity.. hang out with the old timers and stay in the middle of the herd and stay sober.. wishing you the best!!
As far as being toxic or a bad influence on the newcomer this can be seen as subjective. And given the member in question has been around the rooms of AA for many years accusations of any kind may be hard to prove.
There's a guy I've known since day two in AA who has over 40 years of sobriety. He's been accused of stalking and harassing female members. Although to my knowledge nothing has ever been proven or at least not to me. All I've heard is gossip. To others he's a shinning example of AA recovery and I'm sure he has many good points.
However, he's someone I have had little to do with over the years. Setting boundaries and learning to work around those in the fellowship you don't particularly like is good practice for out in the "real world"
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: West Tn
Posts: 3,043
We're glad you're here with us and bringing this up.
You may want to ask that the group have a group conscience following a meeting to discuss this problem.
The guy is a con - nothing more.
If this doesn't work, I would go to another meeting.
You may want to ask that the group have a group conscience following a meeting to discuss this problem.
The guy is a con - nothing more.
If this doesn't work, I would go to another meeting.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
good reading in the thread . its sad that it happens, but it does and its been happening since the beginning of AA.i think i read something about some drunks bill let stay at his house stealing things; seems it was before there were formal meetings.
one thing that has been comin to my mind going through replies:
what would the Master want me to do?
one thing that has been comin to my mind going through replies:
what would the Master want me to do?
12-Step Recovered Alkie
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 5,797
Sounds like God's presented you with a wonderful opportunity to get out of self and pray for someone who obviously really needs some help.
Sure, throw him out of the group or casting judgment is more fun and it certainly comes more natural to us AND even seems justified..... but that's precisely the type of behavior I personally don't want to take part in anymore. Playing the roll of God hasn't worked too well for me in the long run.
"Each person is like an actor who wants to run the whole show; is forever trying to arrange the lights, the ballet, the scenery and the rest of the players in his own way. If his arrangements would only stay put, if only people would do as he wished, the show would be great. Everybody, including himself, would be pleased. Life would be wonderful. In trying to make these arrangements our actor may sometimes be quite virtuous. "
Sure, throw him out of the group or casting judgment is more fun and it certainly comes more natural to us AND even seems justified..... but that's precisely the type of behavior I personally don't want to take part in anymore. Playing the roll of God hasn't worked too well for me in the long run.
"Each person is like an actor who wants to run the whole show; is forever trying to arrange the lights, the ballet, the scenery and the rest of the players in his own way. If his arrangements would only stay put, if only people would do as he wished, the show would be great. Everybody, including himself, would be pleased. Life would be wonderful. In trying to make these arrangements our actor may sometimes be quite virtuous. "
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
I have seen this sort of thing too. It seems to have two main causes. Firstly there is apathy. The offender gets the job, perhaps inspite of the better judgement of members, simply because no one else is willing to do it.
The second is the good motive hidden under the bad, that is the above dressed up with the conscience clearing idea that "it will be good for him/her".
Either one flies in the face of the first tradition, our common welfare must come first, so we ought not be taking risks with the common welfare for an individual benefit, and often concept 9 (I think) which talks about how our fellowship is generously endowed with talented people and we ought to take advantage of this by appointing the best person for the job.
In this case the offender sounds like a sick individual, but the group doesn't sound like it is on solid spiritual ground. Sounds like an opportunity for growth all round.
The second is the good motive hidden under the bad, that is the above dressed up with the conscience clearing idea that "it will be good for him/her".
Either one flies in the face of the first tradition, our common welfare must come first, so we ought not be taking risks with the common welfare for an individual benefit, and often concept 9 (I think) which talks about how our fellowship is generously endowed with talented people and we ought to take advantage of this by appointing the best person for the job.
In this case the offender sounds like a sick individual, but the group doesn't sound like it is on solid spiritual ground. Sounds like an opportunity for growth all round.
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