Does AA have the potential to kill people....
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: De
Posts: 1,333
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot 
The solution is there for the taking for everyone. The thing is, not every member wants the suggested AA solution. AA nonetheless will welcome these members too. We don't judge who has desire and who doesn't. Doing the program is not a requirement to be a member in AA. Ironically, this does not sit well with some members. It doesn't bother me what people do or don't do in AA, unless they start to tell me my experiences must include their understanding of their own experiences.
There really is no such thing as a false impression of AA anymore then there is a false impression of society. People see and hear what they want, same as everywhere else. AA being open to the public is actually as real as it gets. Sure enough people have a need for help, but then again, AA is not a fellowship of students and teachers, as much as people may want it to be. Its a fellowship of people who have a collective desire to quit drinking. People want it to be more, and so they will be disappointed wanting what can not be. There are individuals in the membership who are great examples, and as well members who are not so great as examples of what is AA.
As soon as we de-construct AA as a means to get a better AA, we also lose the very thing that makes AA work so well ie the freedom to have our own understanding in a fellowship of others who also have their own understanding.
There really is no such thing as a false impression of AA anymore then there is a false impression of society. People see and hear what they want, same as everywhere else. AA being open to the public is actually as real as it gets. Sure enough people have a need for help, but then again, AA is not a fellowship of students and teachers, as much as people may want it to be. Its a fellowship of people who have a collective desire to quit drinking. People want it to be more, and so they will be disappointed wanting what can not be. There are individuals in the membership who are great examples, and as well members who are not so great as examples of what is AA.
As soon as we de-construct AA as a means to get a better AA, we also lose the very thing that makes AA work so well ie the freedom to have our own understanding in a fellowship of others who also have their own understanding.
Fellow Traveler and Seeker
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 2,408
Like attracts like.
Those who seek a solution will gravitate towards solution based recovery. The steps and traditions are on almost all walls. They aren't hidden. Most groups have a library which sell the BB. Those who seek a social atmosphere will gravitate towards that type of setting.
Responsibility pledge:
I am responsible.
When anyone, anywhere, reaches out for help,
I want the hand of AA always to be there,
and for that,
I am responsible.
Those who seek a solution will gravitate towards solution based recovery. The steps and traditions are on almost all walls. They aren't hidden. Most groups have a library which sell the BB. Those who seek a social atmosphere will gravitate towards that type of setting.
Responsibility pledge:
I am responsible.
When anyone, anywhere, reaches out for help,
I want the hand of AA always to be there,
and for that,
I am responsible.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 33
My take on it is that if meetings are not adhering to the 5th Tradition - the primary purpose of an AA Group being to deliver the message (the Steps, found in the first 164 pages of the Big Book), then it is not doing all it can to save people from the disease.
In my experience it gets frustrating when I go to a meeting and listen to speakers share the war story but few details about The Steps, their higher power, how the solution is working daily to help them kick tail all over life.
But as my sponsor tells me, it's not all about what the meeting brings to me, its about what I can bring to the meeting. So if I don't hear a message pertinent to newcomers being shared, I can share my own experience on how the Steps have worked, and can go say Hi to a newcomer after the meeting. At least at that point I've made an effort to practice my 12th Step and 5th Tradition.
In my experience it gets frustrating when I go to a meeting and listen to speakers share the war story but few details about The Steps, their higher power, how the solution is working daily to help them kick tail all over life.
But as my sponsor tells me, it's not all about what the meeting brings to me, its about what I can bring to the meeting. So if I don't hear a message pertinent to newcomers being shared, I can share my own experience on how the Steps have worked, and can go say Hi to a newcomer after the meeting. At least at that point I've made an effort to practice my 12th Step and 5th Tradition.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Pa
Posts: 225
Originally Posted by PaperDolls
I used to complain about stuff similar -- my sponsor would always tell me "Things like this have a way of working themselves out without you getting involved." and by golly, she was right!
Its_me_jen
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Salina, Ks
Posts: 8,547
Possibly -- or people go to a different meeting or they start their own group. Out of my control.
Originally Posted by 4thdimension86
People who aren't there for the right reasons go back out? I think stuff like this is an issue with meeting in any large town or city. I find that the rooms in rural areas have a lot more long term sobriety and are solution based. I like my humble home group way out in the sticks.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,359
You cannot control these things. Do your part by keeping your side of the street clean. Its like getting worried about Global Warming while your sitting back in a private jet. Do you part, do the best you can and your HP will take care of everything else.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 1,701
I read here alot about meetings where people share war stories. I never saw that. However, sharing the solution too often becomes a materialistic litany of how many things and career advances people achieved in sobriety.
Like OP, as far as I saw, that was what AA was about.
Like OP, as far as I saw, that was what AA was about.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,359
Muvinon - I tend to agree with the concept. I call this doing the next right thing and yes, it is the only thing I have control over.
However, its interesting that you are triggered by this topic. There is another thread about Opinions. I mean you did not have to post. You must know it would illicit a response and yet you did so anyhow, interesting.
However, its interesting that you are triggered by this topic. There is another thread about Opinions. I mean you did not have to post. You must know it would illicit a response and yet you did so anyhow, interesting.
The Long and Winding Road....
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Brisbane QLD
Posts: 897
this is an interesting topic, and very valid in my humble opinion.
I believe that the core tenants of the AA program, its text and fellowship have allowed many people to recover from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body.............
I am one amongst many..............
however what some groups, areas and indeed cultures subscribe to within the context of aa needs to be questioned. As with broader society.....it is important to note that within AA there are many damaged people, and they will act in accordance with this principle.
stick with the winners, and recall that what i see and hear in many cases is an illusion to the truth.
We quit the debating society
v
I believe that the core tenants of the AA program, its text and fellowship have allowed many people to recover from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body.............
I am one amongst many..............
however what some groups, areas and indeed cultures subscribe to within the context of aa needs to be questioned. As with broader society.....it is important to note that within AA there are many damaged people, and they will act in accordance with this principle.
stick with the winners, and recall that what i see and hear in many cases is an illusion to the truth.
We quit the debating society
v
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: PA
Posts: 12,000
wow, yous guys are killing me
I really don't have anything constructive to say. But this made me think a lot. Since I am a 'newcomer' so to speak, I think I am qualified to critique meetings based on observations of different group speak. I don't have the years of going to one particular meeting or another. But I have spent most of my time going to the same meetings for a couple months. Last week a guy (one of the group "leaders") jumped on a newcomer because he didn't sit at the "newcomers" table and wanted to share "out of order". I was appalled to say the least. When the commotion settled - a whole thirty seconds of it - the kid was invited to speak by almost the entire group right then. He refused and I could tell he went a thousand miles away at that moment. As soon as the meeting was over I wanted to talk to him but he bolted out the door before I could even get up from my chair. Do you think he'll be back?
Then there is another group. The 'we are the best group' group. If anyone wants to join our home group see someone after the meeting. Okay. I have discovered that it is quite an honor to be in this group. What a clique it is!
There are the city groups as well. I get the willies in those meetings. Mainly because of the location and the - judging a book by its cover mentality - scary looking people there. And unfortunately a good percentage of people in some of these meetings are there because they "have to be".
I think there will always be differences in groups. Don't let personalities get in your way... But I do see a lot, a lot of old timers. The most appealing thing for me is that I see people with 30 yrs, 20 and 10 yrs all the time. I'm still doing my 90 in 90 shtick. What is the most impressive thing to me is that the people with all these years of sobriety still make a meeting a day if they can. And to me that is the attraction. Certainly they don't HAVE to go to a meeting every day. But to hear them tell it, they need the meetings and they need the newcomers. What I hear a lot is that the newcomer is the most important part of the program. That "I can't keep it unless I can give it away" attitude. For me, hearing people who had it much worse than I did and are still sober after many years is a blessing for me. No matter how much I think I don't need AA, I just don't want to risk not doing it.
Have you heard of Pascal's Wager? Look it up. That is my view on AA.
Will AA kill me? NO. Will my attitude toward something I don't understand kill me? Probably not. Will just deciding that I can go back out and drink freely as I used to kill me? Probably more than I think.
Can I find another AA meeting if I don't like the one I'm at? Absolutely.
Then there is another group. The 'we are the best group' group. If anyone wants to join our home group see someone after the meeting. Okay. I have discovered that it is quite an honor to be in this group. What a clique it is!
There are the city groups as well. I get the willies in those meetings. Mainly because of the location and the - judging a book by its cover mentality - scary looking people there. And unfortunately a good percentage of people in some of these meetings are there because they "have to be".
I think there will always be differences in groups. Don't let personalities get in your way... But I do see a lot, a lot of old timers. The most appealing thing for me is that I see people with 30 yrs, 20 and 10 yrs all the time. I'm still doing my 90 in 90 shtick. What is the most impressive thing to me is that the people with all these years of sobriety still make a meeting a day if they can. And to me that is the attraction. Certainly they don't HAVE to go to a meeting every day. But to hear them tell it, they need the meetings and they need the newcomers. What I hear a lot is that the newcomer is the most important part of the program. That "I can't keep it unless I can give it away" attitude. For me, hearing people who had it much worse than I did and are still sober after many years is a blessing for me. No matter how much I think I don't need AA, I just don't want to risk not doing it.
Have you heard of Pascal's Wager? Look it up. That is my view on AA.
Will AA kill me? NO. Will my attitude toward something I don't understand kill me? Probably not. Will just deciding that I can go back out and drink freely as I used to kill me? Probably more than I think.
Can I find another AA meeting if I don't like the one I'm at? Absolutely.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 1,003
Originally Posted by jdooner
Muvinon - I tend to agree with the concept. I call this doing the next right thing and yes, it is the only thing I have control over.
However, its interesting that you are triggered by this topic. There is another thread about Opinions. I mean you did not have to post. You must know it would illicit a response and yet you did so anyhow, interesting.
However, its interesting that you are triggered by this topic. There is another thread about Opinions. I mean you did not have to post. You must know it would illicit a response and yet you did so anyhow, interesting.
I am not triggered. I am simply glad that in my meetings, there is a spirit of goodwill that I find completely missing here.
I really don't care how people spit it out in a meeting. I am just glad they are at the meeting and sober.
That is the miracle. I hear lots of stories about why people go back out,and not a single time have I ever heard........"I didn't even know there was a solution." lol
I find all this critique stuff to be completely self-indulgent for the most part. All I have to do is think back to.......oh, how bad of a mess my apartment was when I finally got sober...and then think, oh, and you think that AA meetings and some of the sharing isn't quite "up to your standards?"
Who would I be kidding!
AA works JUST fine. It's not rocket science. The program doesn't have to be expressed in any particular form to work. Cause style is so not the point.
Applying the principles IS the point, to the best of my abilities.
So all the criticizing is scary. It reminds me of my pre-recovery thinking.....where I was sure everyone was criticizing me.
With some of these posts, I'd conclude.........damn, you mean I was right?
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bklyn. NY
Posts: 1,859
Saw this thread a couple of days ago and want to participate, but can't cuz I can't get passed the thought that the OP is, using JDs word, somewhat disengenous. I think I might mean that in a different way though.
The basic message I'm hearing is this. "AA needs to be worked as I believe it should, or it might kill people. Don't you agree?"
If that's not an accurate paraphrasing of the OP, then perhaps I can participate here and make more sense. Without offending anyone
. I disagree with the sentiment of the OP, but can I say that AA hasn't the power to kill? It depends very much however how you define the power to kill. I remember when I was kid the headlines of the Daily News said one day that a kid killed himself because he found out they cancelled the Battlestar Gallactica series (pretty sure that was the show). People kill themselves over money, relationships, jobs, disappointments... are any of those things what really caused them to kill themselves though? If you want to grant the power to kill to AA, then IMO everybody and everything has that same power.
I guess I participated now anyway. Didn't I. Dang!
The basic message I'm hearing is this. "AA needs to be worked as I believe it should, or it might kill people. Don't you agree?"
If that's not an accurate paraphrasing of the OP, then perhaps I can participate here and make more sense. Without offending anyone
. I disagree with the sentiment of the OP, but can I say that AA hasn't the power to kill? It depends very much however how you define the power to kill. I remember when I was kid the headlines of the Daily News said one day that a kid killed himself because he found out they cancelled the Battlestar Gallactica series (pretty sure that was the show). People kill themselves over money, relationships, jobs, disappointments... are any of those things what really caused them to kill themselves though? If you want to grant the power to kill to AA, then IMO everybody and everything has that same power.I guess I participated now anyway. Didn't I. Dang!
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