Joe Nerv

This is intended for people who've been around AA for a couple of decades. Don't have to be sober all that time, but just around enough to notice that as with anything else, there have been some obvious changes over time. Of course everyone is welcome to participate, but I hope to hear from those who've been around to experience the actual changes. Particuarly in attendance.

This is inspired by something I read in another thread yesterday, where someone stated that they believe AA is less attended because people are not working the steps the way they used to. I've heard others say they believe AA has become watered down.

That might be the case in some areas, but in NY it seems to me that people are involved in the steps just as much today as they were when I made my first meeting in 1984. I'd actually say even more people are involved in them than back then, as we've got a lot of BB advocates filling the rooms with their live versions of what bill and bob wrote. And I see equal amounts of people coming in and going out. Again, it may even be less going out today, but I can't say for sure as I don't make as many meetings as I did back then.

One thing I do know for sure however is that the attendance in meeting has definitely changed. So has the numbers of groups around. But I don't believ it's because less people are recovering, I believe that all has to do with the surge of popularity that the 12 steps, and AA got in the late 80s, and throughout the 90s. When I came into the program, not many people knew anything at all about AA. Somewhere, somehow, I believe around 1989 it began to get popular. So popular that other 12 step groups started popping up all over the place. It was awesome. ARTS Anonymous, sex and love addicts, cocaine, marijuana, self mutilators, debtors, codependends, and on and on... just about every affliction under the sun had a group, with an anonymous tag at the end. I visited a bunch of them. Some followed the steps and traditions, others I'm sorry to say seemed like juat a bunch of crazy people gethering to share their experience with each other. I was going to one such group reguarly until it dawned on me one day that it was nothing more than a bunch of very sick people sitting aournd justifying some of their sick ways.

Due to the media attention and publicity those groups were getting, a lot of people had the desire to go to the grandparent of them all, and hurled themselves into AA. Groups in my neighborhood started sprouting all over the place. In the mid nineties there were tons of AA meetings. Then something happened. I don't know what, perhaps simply the hand of god... the fad seemed to die out. People, quite possibly who never really had any alcohol problem to begin with (I know a few), stopped coming. Those who didn't truly need AA disappeared, and we were left with lots of meeting rooms, yet half the attendance. Some of those groups closed, and people saw it as a sad thing. Those groups weren't there when i got here, so it didn't mean all that much to me. Anyhow, in the end, we wound up with a lot more space than we actually needed - and because of that it looks very much like AA is diminishing. I don't believe that's the case. For those who entered AA during the height of it's popularity, things could look a lot different than for those who were around before and after. Anyhow, I believe AA actually stronger than it ever was, just spread out a lot more thinly... and yeah. Like that. More I wanted to say regarding this, but I have to get on with my day. Maybe later.

Would like to hear others thoughts and opinions.

laurie6781

Good Topic!!!!!

I have been an AA Member since June 7, 1981 and have continuously sobriety from
that time.

I have watched AA Morph and change, become really popular for a lot of people,
who may or may not have been alcoholic and then start to Morph back to where it
was in the late '70's, early '80's.

Yes, there seem to be a lot more meetings than there used to be. I know where
I got sober in The San Fernando Valley there are more meetings. Maybe not with
big attendance, but many more available. However, the old 'standbys' that were
there when I got sober are STILL THERE! My old Home Group is alive and well
and is in it's 61st year. The 3 Alano Clubs (which holds meetings from early morn-
ing to late in the evening) in the valley are still there.

Here where I have lived for the past 20 years, as our population has doubled from
when I moved here, yep there are more meetings. Our Alano club is also open
from very early morning to late evening with meetings, and of course some social
events also.

I don't believe AA is going away anytime soon. Our population around the world
keeps growing and certainly here in the U.S. Since the 'experts' still say that
about 10% of the population will become alcoholic and/or addicted to drugs I
don't see the doors of AA or for that matter NA closing anytime soon.

Do I attend all the meetings I attended in my first few years? Nope. I do go
when I feel a 'fill up' needed. I also pay yearly dues to our Alano club and
once in a while attend a meeting there. It is an important part of our AA
community as far as I am concerned, they do get a lot of 'wet ones' coming
in there, and believe it or not, STAYING to find sobriety. Not only that, but
our Alano Club after having to move a few times over the years, 14 years
ago, bought the building they are in and thus have a 'mortgage' to pay. Now
individual meetings each have their own secretary, treasurer, and group
conscience, and pay 'rent' to the club to use their meeting room and for the
coffee.

Along with the newcomers coming in there, there are many 'old timers' that
now being retired stop in several times a week, buy lunch, go to a meeting
or two, chat with the younger members (in age and sobriety, lol) and our
Alano Club is almost like another Senior Citizen center in this town, but with
lots more younger folks. And of course, and awful LOT of AA program.

What I have seen over the years and especially in the last few years, is that
folks are finding AA a lot sooner, not having to take their alcoholism to the
MAX the way I did. I am sure some of this is due to the internet, some to
more public awareness, etc Sometimes they stay and sometimes they have
to go back out there for a while longer to convince themselves. However,
they are still getting here to AA sooner than years ago. Their awareness
is coming much earlier than mine or others of my era did. That is a VERY
GOOD thing in my opinion.

As to AA not being what is used to be? Well I beg to differ. I think AA is
all that it 'used to be' and much much more now.

J M H O

Love and hugs,

2granddaughters

Why AA isn't what it used to be .... Yes, this is a good topic.

I'm not sure AA morphs but I know I've morphed over the years. I believe that's what should happen.

I don't believe AA should change any more than the 10 Commandments or 7 Deadly Sins should change.

If AA isn't what it used to be then I've shirked my responsibility of guarding and protecting the basics of AA. I have allowed strong AA coffee to become weak AA coffee.

AA's ability to treat the suffering alcoholic as described in "The Doctors Opinion" and "How It Works" does not change because of the opinion of the day in society. The Program of AA is sound and stable... it's the perception and opinion that changes.
If I remember that simple fact I am on solid ground as well.

I would no more think of missing meetings than a grateful churchgoer would plan to miss church. They know where their strength and freedom is found.

Many other groups use the 12 Steps because they work but there is only 1 AA.
That being said I feel right at home in an NA or GA or OA or SA etc meeting as my disease is the same as theirs (the thinking is the same), only the DOC is different.

After 20' some years in AA there are 2 things that are at the front of my mind and I know I need to make improvements:
1) Rarely have we seen a person fail who has THOROUGHLY followed our path.
2) HALF MEASURES AVAILED US NOTHING

Seems like there is always something popping up requiring improvement ....

All the best.

Bob R

DoubleBarrel

People don't drink to cope like they used to. They go to the doctor and get SSRIs. Im not commenting on whether thats good or bad, its just that drinking isn't what it was.
Less people in=less people who become alcoholics.
All you need to do is watch an old movie to see that. Alcohol was totally socially acceptable. In the 80s it started getting a bad rep. When is the last time you saw business men having a cocktail at lunch? I did that one time about ten years ago, and you would have thought I had ordered a live baby to eat.
Also, the younger culture has mainstreamed smoking pot in a way unprecedented, and a lot of people do that in lieu of drinking. They cite no hangover, less bad choices, etc.
Again, I know that can cause problems, but I think that might be what you see in the meeting rooms.

hamabi

I'd say membership peaked and dropped a bit in the last 15 years, and I notice it coincided with the closing of many treatment centers, as insurance providers tightened the benefits paid for treatment and the counties around my state closed the free treatment facilities they had operated.

Pehaps it's not so, but could a factor be the drying up of human kindness and the coldness which with we lately deal with people who need a little help? The last years of large employers closing and huge layoffs in industries has gotten to be taken as a matter of fact, we no longer have the high levels of concern for the well being of others and as a society perfer not to hear about their troubles.

The ideals of the hippies have been discounted and ridiculed, we want robot like performance in the areas of society that affect us. We are disconnected from our fellows in a never before degree. We are used to speaking to service desks in other lands for answers to our questions, and never bat an eye any longer.

That we are now used to people not caring places a distance between what AA offers and what the newcomer expects to find. In a good group that 2013 shell they wear is broken and fellowship they've not experienced is offered. In a lousy group people retain their shells and it's a room full of people with individual concerns and the new guy is no more than the possesor of his own lonely agenda.

Not true all over, assuredly. But perhaps true enough to account for the changes some of us see.

Joe Nerv

Interesting ideas, and probably true. I'll add to that the impact that AIDS had on our society, and especially our program. I think it hardened a lot of people, including myself. There was about a 10 year period where it was impossible to go to a meeting without hearing at least one person speak of what they were going through in relation to their then terminal illness. My sponsor, along with many of my friends passed away during that time, and many of us watched it slowly, and often painfully happen. It was heartbreaking, and made many other things seem very minor in comparison.

I remember watching the movie Brian's Song about 5 years ago, and wondering what all the fuss was about. When I saw that movie as a kid, it was absolutely heartbreaking. Having witnessed the heart of AIDS epidemic it became over dramatic and almost comical. I couldn't believe how it seemed things had changed.

KnowHope

Bob Bacon comes to mind.

Excerpts from his talk

My name is Bob Bacon. I am powerless over alcohol and very grateful to be alive and a part of this conference.

Are we, in the content of our A.A. meetings, getting away from A.A. basics? I believe we are. Alcoholics Anonymous is growing at a faster rate than at any time since the ‘40’s, and I suspect we were not ready for such growth. Have we gotten a little complacent and smug in our well-being? People today are coming to Alcoholics Anonymous in far better shape physically and mentally than most of us here did. We need to show them how we learned to stay sober. If our meetings consist mostly of drinking experiences, our ideas and opinions, we are not doing our jobs. Dr. Bob said our program when boiled down, is love and service.

We need to show all the newcomers that we love them as we were loved and we have a way of life we wish to share. If our meetings are nothing but drunk-a-logs and meaningless chatter, we are not showing them “How It Works”. In A.A. meetings, we reach out with love and told people, “These are the Steps we took” and “We had to go to any lengths”. Is that what the newcomer is hearing in our meetings today?

When a person comes to us after 30 days in a rehabilitation center, he or she is already dry and needs to know how we are staying sober. I believe our meetings are not really covering this heavy responsibility as effectively as we should and could. We do have some good news, such as Big Book Study Meetings. More and more in my area, we are going to discussion meetings. This new idea is from the Grapevine.

To me, it is vital to the survival of our Fellowship that we make certain the people coming to us for help are made aware of the Big Book, the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions as possibly their only hope for survival from alcoholism. If we fail to guide them to our program of recovery, our Fellowship will not survive. Our future is dependent upon a continuing stream of recovered alcoholics.

In today’s frustrating world, our Program works better than ever. Are we doing a good enough job sharing this with the thousands of people coming to us now? Shouldn’t we be giving these people all Three Legacies of Recovery, Unity and Service? We have to tell them more than, “Don’t drink and go to meetings”. If all we talk about is our drinking, our ideas, our opinions, my day or the way I do it, we are not carrying the message--we are carrying the illness. We should be talking about recovery. I don’t believe we are.

Are we stressing the real value of the Big Book? You can go to meetings in my area where you can’t find a Big Book. Lately, when I am asked to lead a meeting, I have to take my Big Book with me. I don’t want to lead a meeting that doesn’t have a Big Book. We hear many people lead meetings and never mention the Steps or the Big Book. Is it because nobody told them how very important the Big Book is? Do we forget to tell the newcomer that what is in the Big Book can save his or her life? Our total Program is in the Big Book and only in the Big Book. Shouldn’t we be telling people that?

We hear a lot of ridiculous things like, “There are no musts in A.A.” My Big Book read different. People say that it is an individual program, that we can take the Steps any way we want to. Dr. Bob said, and I quote, “There is no such thing as an individual interpretation of the Twelve Steps.” If we are not honest with the new people and tell them how important each Step is, who will tell them? Some people seem to think the Steps are a necessary evil instead of a lifesaving prescription for happiness.

We rarely hear about the Traditions. The fact that these came about because of our mistakes and failures is almost a secret. The Traditions are the lifesaving guide lines for each group and for our Fellowship as a whole and each of us should be responsible to honor them. When I first wanted to get a copy of the “Twelve and Twelve”, a G.S.R. told me the Tradition pamphlet had all I needed. Thank God, I didn’t listen to him.

In 1965 at Maple Leaf Gardens in Toronto, most of us stood with Bill and said, “I am responsible. When anyone, anywhere reaches out for help, I want the hand of A.A. always to be there and for that I am responsible.” Being at that Convention is the reason I am standing here now. We are the guardians of this Fellowship, and maybe we need to do a better job of sharing what it is all doubt. Are we still responsible?

BackToSquareOne

When AA was founded the world was a much different place. The very early members were a group of highly motivated people and as such had a much greater chance of success. The world was at war on many fronts, there were 2.2 billion people in the world. There are now almost 7 billion people and if you use the generally accepted figure of 10% alcoholics there could be 700 million alcoholics strolling about on the planet.


Consider a group made up of highly motivated people as compared to one made up everyone and their grandmother that could be coerced into attending by one means or another. AA has become the dumping grounds for the legal system, threats of job loss, marriages gone south and every other possible reason people are forced into treatment. Is it then any wonder why so many pass thru the revolving doors no better off than they came in?

shaun00

Thank god some people had the good sense to write done the program of action, that hasn't changed.

I believe AA the fellowship has been changing from the very beginning.

SavingSelf

So interesting. I was reading this thread and trying to put into words how I felt about this (that the program doesn't change but as it is performed by people there are always going to be variations). I couldn't come up with a good way to put it--and then I read the AA thought of the day thread--and that first paragraph sums up nicely how I feel about it.

Good stuff to think about.

muvinon

Bell curve....it's normal. I've been around the program (AA and Al-Anon) for 25 years. It was probably the biggest when I first arrived, at least on the West Coast.

But there are tons of articles on this bell curve. And, btw, I agree that bigger isn't necessarily better.

bbthumper

Indeed. I am far from qualifying as a long-timer in the program, but it seems to me that the change has occurred in the members and not the program.
Treatment centers brought in a lot of well-intended new ideas, but they, ion many cases, contradict what the program teaches. Seems a snow-ball effect occurred and a lot of these ideas were carried from member to member, meeting to meeting and are mistaken as being part of the program.

LadyinBC

I will agree with you on that as some of the meetings I go to or have gone to have people that really don't want to be there and have been mandated by the courts to be there. Even when I went to daytox a lot of people there HAD to go. They weren't given a choice.

My dad was an alcoholic and went to AA 2 - 3 times a week for 10 years until he died in 1991.

I don't want anyone to take offense to this, but some people hear the word God and I think their mind shuts down. But that is just my opinion.

Db1105

I'm one of those court mandated member. I can't thank God enough for having me sent before the same judge serveral times who know my problem was alcoholism, and where I could get help. What funny is that I heard the same complaint that AA isn't what it used to be when I came in court ordered in 1977.

It's just the people are different these days. You have 3 year olds that can operate an IPhone better than a 70 year old. You can talk to people on the other side of the world with a click on a button. On the other hand you're more incline to find a pharmacy on every corner, instead of a liquor store, at least in my area.

You have random drug and alcohol testing instead of three martini lunches at places of employment. You can get a prescription for incredibly potent narcotics just saying your back hurts. You can get a prescription for pot these days. AA is no longer the only recovery resource anymore. There are other alcohol recovery programs. There are a lot more rehabs, certified therapist and the like these day. NA has really expanded in my area.

When I attend a meeting these days, it's the same 12 Steps, the same 12 Traditions. As it says in Chapter 5 of How It Works; "Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path..."

TSDD

I certainly don't see any less people parroting the book or bragging about how many times they've done the steps. There's been narcicists, bullies, preachers, and blow-hards in AA for at least 50 years (according to men I know who tell stories)

An old timer I used to ride with a lot said that the rehab industry hurt AA. I believe this. As someone pointed out, people get sober in rehab, once they are a little together to whom are they greatful? AA or rehab?

I see people who got sober in AA, shivering and shaking at meetings or being babysat by other AA members and fed nips to keep from going into seizures. These people are really greatful to AA. They're the ones who are making coffee, opening halls, going on commitments, and generally taking time out of their lives to give back to AA. If I have noticed anything it's a general unwillingness of most folks to go out of their way for AA or to stick their hand out to another.

At the end of the day there's millions of people staying sober today with whatever they consider AA. I'm not sure why some folks feel so threatened by whatever someone else is or is not doing or saying while staying sober?

bi11fish

The Program of Alcoholics Anonymous has changed not at all as laid out in the doctors opinion and first 164 pages of our basic text -The Big Book.
The Fellowship of AA has many facets of change and this follows the 5th tradition. Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole. Each group has but one primary purpose—to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.
I believe that the original AA's laid this out so there could be progress "?"
in the fellowship while maintaining the basic principles of THE program.

muvinon

Some stuff that was emphasized isn't emphasized so much anymore. Some stuff that used to be said as "truisms" (passed around....but not in the book) aren't said anymore.

I think some changes have been steps forward for the fellowship. Not all changes are bad, folks. lol

Some actually have helped.

Music

Well, at the risk of opening up a can of worms, I'll just say this. AA hasn't changed!! The original 164 pages in the Big Book are the same. The 12 and 12 is the same. Stories have changed but that's all. What has changed is the opinion and the attitudes of people about AA, and te newcomers ideas of what it takes to get sober and stay sober in todays society.

I was told to decide whether or not I wanted to get sober and then I was asked what I was willing to do to make that happen. My answers were, and still are; "yes" and "whatever it takes".

There was a time when I'd go to any lengths to help someone who wanted help. The only requirement was, and still is, his determination to get sober and his willingness to do whatever's necessay. If I receive or preceive any kind of negative response to either of those requirements today, I step back and decide for myself just how much I want to put into this relationship. I don't think these things I've mentioned constitute a change in AA, but rather a change in me and my attitude about working with people in AA. I'm tired of listening to people whine and moan about their station in life and not be willing to do anything about making some changes. I don't care about how busy life is, how many kids a person has, work, the wife, or any of that other micellanious crap people come up with these days to use for reasons not to save their lives.

Joe Nerv

I agree with the above. When I came around it was common practice for a sponsor to ask before accepting to sponsor someone, "Are you willing to go to any lengths?". And if they weren't, there would be no sponsorship. And if a sponsee later became unwilling for any reason, it would be talked over again. People don't treat this as life and death the way they used to.

I recently took a commitment bringing a meeting to a rehab. First time I went the group there was really happy to see us because they said AA people only show up about 50% of the time. They have a 6 o'clock meeting every night, and its hit or miss whether anyone will be there to run it. That flabbergasted me. It's incomprehensible to me that anyone would take a commitment at a rehab, and sometimes not show up. Why take it if you can't or dont want to do it, and if you can't do it what's so difficult to get someone to fill in. Where I come from that's just not done.

CousinA

This makes me sad. I was exposed to AA (and NA) in a rehab and I began looking forward to those meetings. It's where those first seeds were planted that maybe there was some other way to live.

This reminds me of a story about a couple of guys I'm proud to call my friends. One was in Smithers (a rehab here in NYC for those not familiar) when we had the blackout. He and another patient planned to split the next day and go on a run. The second guy had the weekly commitment to bring the meeting and walked from 181st Street to 59th. The staff and patients were blown away that he made the trip and back home on foot - in a blackout. Long story short, second guy is first guys sponsor. This is what I think of when we talk about any length. It's how I was raised up in AA and what I still aspire to.