How to foster honesty in your AA group?
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Denver
Posts: 24
Originally Posted by Fernaceman 
It seems you might be worried about how YOU look by testing the waters here first to see what the response might be.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Denver
Posts: 24
Originally Posted by miamifella
Why not just go to other groups meeting in addition to this one? If you see how other groups conduct themselves you will have a greater understanding of what is unique about this one.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
"To thine own self be true" = your responsibility as a member of AA, even if it makes you unpopular- which I, personally, deeply dislike being.
disliking not being unpopular= pride,ego, low self esteem, the BB makes it simple:
Selfishness - self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles. Driven by a hundred forms of fear, self-delusion, self-seeking, and self-pity, we step on the toes of our fellows and they retaliate. Sometimes they hurt us, seemingly without provocation, but we invariably find that at some time in the past we have made decisions based on self which later placed us in a position to be hurt.
"I can be so deluded sometimes it shocks even me. So thanks for the reality check. "
nothin unique here. ive taken some very hard knocks in recovery to be brought back down to the level of everyone else. still start puttin myself up higher occasionally, but someones there to knck me down.
disliking not being unpopular= pride,ego, low self esteem, the BB makes it simple:
Selfishness - self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles. Driven by a hundred forms of fear, self-delusion, self-seeking, and self-pity, we step on the toes of our fellows and they retaliate. Sometimes they hurt us, seemingly without provocation, but we invariably find that at some time in the past we have made decisions based on self which later placed us in a position to be hurt.
"I can be so deluded sometimes it shocks even me. So thanks for the reality check. "
nothin unique here. ive taken some very hard knocks in recovery to be brought back down to the level of everyone else. still start puttin myself up higher occasionally, but someones there to knck me down.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bklyn. NY
Posts: 1,859
I understand your reluctance to switch groups, but it seems to me that's exactly what you might need to do. 4 to 6 years is just about how long I can hang around a group, before I start knowing everybody too well and taking their inventories as opposed to mine 
. I find other groups, new people, get a fresh message and don't know who the group idiots are. And I can learn lots from those group idiots. Doesn't mean I have to cut off my friends or never return to the group I left. Just means I take a needed break. And you know what winds up happening.... Years later I find that the BSers either disappear, or learn a whole lot, grow in the program, and get real. And the people who are real from the getgo are usually still there.
Something else I've noticed along the way. When I get a negative notion in my head (ie: a lot of these people are full of crap), my brain starts searching that stuff out like a heat seeking missile. One little piece of bs will get my focus and I'll miss a lot of the good that's happening. I'm going to guess there's just as much bs going on in your group as in any group of people on the planet, you just have a heightened awareness of it now because of how well you know the group members, and your recent experience losing a friend. I really think a vacation from them all will do you some good. Seems you've shifted the focus from what needs healing in you, to what needs healing in them. I think we all know by now what happens when we try to fix "them".
Best of luck in whatever you decide to do.
. I find other groups, new people, get a fresh message and don't know who the group idiots are. And I can learn lots from those group idiots. Doesn't mean I have to cut off my friends or never return to the group I left. Just means I take a needed break. And you know what winds up happening.... Years later I find that the BSers either disappear, or learn a whole lot, grow in the program, and get real. And the people who are real from the getgo are usually still there.Something else I've noticed along the way. When I get a negative notion in my head (ie: a lot of these people are full of crap), my brain starts searching that stuff out like a heat seeking missile. One little piece of bs will get my focus and I'll miss a lot of the good that's happening. I'm going to guess there's just as much bs going on in your group as in any group of people on the planet, you just have a heightened awareness of it now because of how well you know the group members, and your recent experience losing a friend. I really think a vacation from them all will do you some good. Seems you've shifted the focus from what needs healing in you, to what needs healing in them. I think we all know by now what happens when we try to fix "them".
Best of luck in whatever you decide to do.
~sb
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: MD
Posts: 15,967
XA-Speakers - The lights are on!
1946
Marty M. talks about "1 Steppers" and "2 Steppers" since the beginning of AA.....and how it's different in every group....
I suggest you focus on your own spirituality....
1946
Marty M. talks about "1 Steppers" and "2 Steppers" since the beginning of AA.....and how it's different in every group....
I suggest you focus on your own spirituality....
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Denver
Posts: 24
Originally Posted by Joe Nerv
I understand your reluctance to switch groups, but it seems to me that's exactly what you might need to do.
That's what I'm after here. . . what can I do to help?
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bklyn. NY
Posts: 1,859
Originally Posted by SixYearsSober
What about personal responsibility to the group? I'm definitely not interested in "fixing" anyone- totally with you there- but if (if!) I can help, I have a responsibility to do so.
That's what I'm after here. . . what can I do to help?
That's what I'm after here. . . what can I do to help?
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
Originally Posted by SixYearsSober
Please help. I belong to an AA group where there is a lot of long-term sobriety, and it seems to me (although I have difficulty distinguishing the true from the false) that these is more emphasis placed on "sounding good" than on telling the truth. I have many times sat next to people who, after sharing, whispered to me "Did I sound OK?" I was present at a meeting where we were discussing turning to AA in times of need, and a young woman was asked if she always turned to AA and her answer was basically "yes, and as a result, since my first year I've been more or less OK". Everyone in that room knew that she only has a few years of sobriety, and she quit coming to AA at all for over a year, and the only reason she came back was because she started dating (and, a year later, married) a member of the group and no one said anything. Recently, a woman of almost three years of sobriety made amends to the group because she had been smoking pot every day and no one seemed to care; everyone just gave her kudos on being honest. This woman had taken others through the work, and always went on and on about how great her program was. . . and she still does, post-amend. I don't care about the pot-smoking, but I do care that someone's sitting there saying that they're doing great because they're working the program and the program works when they're stoned . . . it's harmful to the new person and to anyone sitting in the room that isn't doing so well. I had wondered many times when this person was sharing what the hell was wrong with me that I had more sobriety but wasn't so happy and fulfilled all the time. On Thursday night, a member of the group was found dead of a heroin overdose. He had almost 20 years of sobriety, and NO ONE would have suspected him of drug use. I feel that if he had been able to tell someone what he was up to, he wouldn't have had to die. I want to bring this to the group's attention, but I'm not sure how. Specifically, can anyone think of a proposal to bring to group conscious that addresses the issue of honesty? Thank you!
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Denver
Posts: 24
Originally Posted by Music
Being critical of others deflects the attention off me so I don't have to look at my own defects.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bklyn. NY
Posts: 1,859
Originally Posted by SixYearsSober
Thanks, I appreciate the post. But believe me, it's not about being critical of others. This is about "how could I have saved this guy's life"?
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
The truth is that AA is full of liars, cheats, bums, adulterers, egomaniacs, wife beaters, child molesters, wh0re mongers and just plain bad folks. Very few will actualy come right out and share the honest to God truth about themselves because most of us want to present our best side. My sponsors are the only ones who really know who I am. Even my wife doesn't know a lot of what went on in my drinking days. There are good reasons for this. First, it's none of yours or anyone else's business and two, that's what sponsors are for.
I've been in AA for some time and have seen people come and go, live and die, lie and tell the truth, and have wondered on occasion if there was something I could do to prevent things from happening. I'm not God and it isn't my job. My job as outlined in the pre-amble is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety and to be as rigorously honest with myself as I can possibly be. That doesn't include being rigorously honest with any of you. I share what I need to share and I believe no one in AA dies in vain. If you think dishonesty kills someone, then learn from that and be honest. I'm responsible for my own sobriety, nobody else's. Just because I think my group may have a problem with honesty, doesn't mean honesty is the problem. Maybe I'm the problem; taking the inventory of the group or someone in the group. Not my job. By the way, changing groups is much like taking the geographical cure. No group is perfect. And don't forget, wherever I go, I take me with me.
I've been in AA for some time and have seen people come and go, live and die, lie and tell the truth, and have wondered on occasion if there was something I could do to prevent things from happening. I'm not God and it isn't my job. My job as outlined in the pre-amble is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety and to be as rigorously honest with myself as I can possibly be. That doesn't include being rigorously honest with any of you. I share what I need to share and I believe no one in AA dies in vain. If you think dishonesty kills someone, then learn from that and be honest. I'm responsible for my own sobriety, nobody else's. Just because I think my group may have a problem with honesty, doesn't mean honesty is the problem. Maybe I'm the problem; taking the inventory of the group or someone in the group. Not my job. By the way, changing groups is much like taking the geographical cure. No group is perfect. And don't forget, wherever I go, I take me with me.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
Originally Posted by SixYearsSober
Thanks, I appreciate the post. But believe me, it's not about being critical of others. This is about "how could I have saved this guy's life"?
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
Originally Posted by SixYearsSober
Thanks, I appreciate the post. But believe me, it's not about being critical of others. This is about "how could I have saved this guy's life"?
it is hard for me to accept that i am going to have to step over the ones that fall by the wayside, but i dont want to go down with em. if i dont accept it, there is a high probability that i'll go down with em.
we are dealing with alcohol, cunning,baffling,powerful,patient, and deadly.
just to add, the chaptr" working with others" has some pretty good advise.
1000 Post Club
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 2,284
That is why I do not give a lot of respect or listen to someone with long term sobriety until I really get to know them. People can easily lie about their sobriety dates. Heck, I've seen folks picking up the sobriety chips while visibly intoxicated.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cape Cod, Massachusetts
Posts: 367
Originally Posted by SixYearsSober
I really appreciate the reply, and I agree with you, except I'm beyond caring about diplomacy or putting people on the defensive. My friend is DEAD. If there's anything I can do to prevent future tragedy, I need to do it, even if I become the most unpopular AA member in town.
I also find many people seem more interested in impressing eachother with how well they are than telling the truth. People fear rejection of their peers and are terrified that if they can't one-up the next guy on how greatful they are or how long their 4th step was, that people will think they're doing something wrong.
I have had to take a vacation from groups in the past. I take a half a year or so to go on the road and check out some different people/meetings and I'm recharged and it does wonders for my perspective.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 2,548
One thing i do when i get disturbed at meetings....is get to the root of what it is that grinds me.
And i always come up with something inside myself thats objectionable.
Normally self centred fear, or my ability to judge others by my own perfect program.
Im not saying this is the case, but i find no happy conclusion from just trying to figure out others actions , words, honesty or program.
AA is full of sick people sometimes....REGARDLESS of length of sobriety, an alcoholic with the same alcoholic mind is an unpleasant looking creature .
I would rant for a bit....then stop and think....How can i be of use to this meeting?... what can i do for this meeting and members which can make it a great meeting ?..How can i carry the vision of gods will into my evening ?
I get you......i have had these struggles, the 20 year sober guy married and sleeping with newcomers....or the guy taking his applause for 10 years sober smelling of booze.....
BUT, ....i cant sweep their side of the street...only my little patch.
And after all that.......sometimes i just need to walk off and find another meeting.
And i always come up with something inside myself thats objectionable.
Normally self centred fear, or my ability to judge others by my own perfect program.
Im not saying this is the case, but i find no happy conclusion from just trying to figure out others actions , words, honesty or program.
AA is full of sick people sometimes....REGARDLESS of length of sobriety, an alcoholic with the same alcoholic mind is an unpleasant looking creature .
I would rant for a bit....then stop and think....How can i be of use to this meeting?... what can i do for this meeting and members which can make it a great meeting ?..How can i carry the vision of gods will into my evening ?
I get you......i have had these struggles, the 20 year sober guy married and sleeping with newcomers....or the guy taking his applause for 10 years sober smelling of booze.....
BUT, ....i cant sweep their side of the street...only my little patch.
And after all that.......sometimes i just need to walk off and find another meeting.
12-Step Recovered Alkie
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 5,797
Dolls has it right.
Ppl told me to be honest all my life. It didn't have much of an effect on me other than it made me feel guilty about all the lying I was doing - and continued to do. I went to private Catholic 1st grade through and including high school so I was well educated in Biblical/moral reasons to be honest, yet I continued to lie.
Watching/hearing others in AA get honest made a difference. Hearing ppl share difficulties with the program, speaking openly about resentments and what they were doing about them, talking about what was really going on in their life rather than just trying to toe the AA line of "happy joyous and free"..... seeing honesty in action made a difference.
Want ppl to be honest? Dolls has it right......don't TELL them to be honest, show them how to be honest and open. They'll either pick it up or they won't. Power over what other ppl do isn't one of the things God routinely blesses us with but we DO have the ability to be a demonstration of what He would have us be....for others to see, to learn from, and to try themselves.
Whether someone's lying at a table, picking up a coin they don't deserve, or not telling the whole truth........none of that is really my business. Sure, I'm allowed to say something but I try to keep in mind how I'd feel being on the receiving end of someone else telling me X or Y.....then tailor my approach to be as attractive as possible.
Ppl told me to be honest all my life. It didn't have much of an effect on me other than it made me feel guilty about all the lying I was doing - and continued to do. I went to private Catholic 1st grade through and including high school so I was well educated in Biblical/moral reasons to be honest, yet I continued to lie.
Watching/hearing others in AA get honest made a difference. Hearing ppl share difficulties with the program, speaking openly about resentments and what they were doing about them, talking about what was really going on in their life rather than just trying to toe the AA line of "happy joyous and free"..... seeing honesty in action made a difference.
Want ppl to be honest? Dolls has it right......don't TELL them to be honest, show them how to be honest and open. They'll either pick it up or they won't. Power over what other ppl do isn't one of the things God routinely blesses us with but we DO have the ability to be a demonstration of what He would have us be....for others to see, to learn from, and to try themselves.
Whether someone's lying at a table, picking up a coin they don't deserve, or not telling the whole truth........none of that is really my business. Sure, I'm allowed to say something but I try to keep in mind how I'd feel being on the receiving end of someone else telling me X or Y.....then tailor my approach to be as attractive as possible.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by miamifella
Why not just go to other groups meeting in addition to this one? If you see how other groups conduct themselves you will have a greater understanding of what is unique about this one.
Better suggestion - Why not start your own group. You would be surprised at how little time and money it takes. I got one running in 2 weeks for about $100 investment.
1. Contact a local church.
2. Offer them monthly rent (20-50$).
3. Buy a coffee pot & supplies (20-60$).
4. Invest in some literature & tokens (30-100$)
5. Invite a few friends.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Bridgeton
Posts: 718
Sorry to hear about your loss and I praise you for being strong and bringing up this type of subject matter. My sponsor got me into my 'home' group, I still go because I feel loyalty (& make the coffee) but it is my least favorite meeting of my week. I often get judgmental at this meeting & I catch myself doing that. "That person doesn't know what rock bottom is.."
And when I go & feel like I need to unload a problem, everyone else is pink clouding & I often sensor my feelings when I share, & I know that is bad for me to do. It's almost like peer pressure, and you don't want to bring the whole group down with you. Little by little though, with time, I seem to be getting better at how I share and get my feelings out. I often judge myself though before I share, thinking maybe I'm too much on my pity pot and feeling too negative about where I am at this point in my recovery. Recovery and working the program is a real balancing act for me. And sometimes we don't know how other people really are inside until something bad happens or they relapse. We only hope we can help that person in some way, even if it's by our words & sharing. The larger meetings seem to be more difficult for me...I like smaller groups....
And when I go & feel like I need to unload a problem, everyone else is pink clouding & I often sensor my feelings when I share, & I know that is bad for me to do. It's almost like peer pressure, and you don't want to bring the whole group down with you. Little by little though, with time, I seem to be getting better at how I share and get my feelings out. I often judge myself though before I share, thinking maybe I'm too much on my pity pot and feeling too negative about where I am at this point in my recovery. Recovery and working the program is a real balancing act for me. And sometimes we don't know how other people really are inside until something bad happens or they relapse. We only hope we can help that person in some way, even if it's by our words & sharing. The larger meetings seem to be more difficult for me...I like smaller groups....
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
