crisco

Hello Everybody,

I have about fifty-seven days of being sober. I am doing well, but I am struggling with my sponsor's concept of God.

My sponsor is a strong Christian and I am a non-believer. I believe that his spiritual experience is real and can provide a pathway to being sober.

For doing the steps, he uses a book written by the followers of Clarence Snyder. Clarence Snyder was a strong believer in Jesus and used a faith-based method to doing the steps.

The most difficult part of the book for me is that you need a Christian experience to have the most effective path in sobriety. The book state that Dr. Bob used a lot of Christian teaching in his spiritual teaching and Bill left this out of the book on purpose because it did not fit with his spiritual beliefs.

This path is described at (Rev. Sam Shoemaker, A.A. Co-Founder and Spiritual Source - by: Dick B.).

Most nonbelievers would reject this approach because of its overt references to Christianity and the fact is that they would have difficult time with the Christian concept of God. The problem with me is that I do have a little bit of faith in God and according to my therapist, that is sufficient. She states that you only need a little bit of faith in God for the steps to work as Clarence Snyder does it. I have strong beliefs in Darwinism and evolution, but have not outright rejected the concept that Jesus rose from the dead. I have an open mind toward this path, but find it hard to have the type of faith that is going to keep me sober.

Yet, I find that this path so far is resulting in more change in my actions and deeds than my first time sober. It has resulted in more peace of mind and serenity than when I had a closed mind towards God's existence. There is a desire to have a relationship with God even though I place little faith in his existence.

Has anybody dealt with deep skepticism about God's existence and yet yearned for a relationship for him? Has anybody had a tiny bit of faith and deep skepticism, but had a spiritual experience sufficient to keep them sober for a long time?

That is dilemma that is upon my soul right now. My soul is yearning for a spiritual experience to remain sober, but yet is struggling with the higher power concept to keep them sober.

defyinggravity

My belief in God waxes and wanes on a daily basis...I generally believe in some greater force that orchestrated evolution and all of that (I'm a scientist so I'm right there with you on the whole Darwinism thing) but I question it ALL the time. I would LOVE to freely, wholly and unabashedly believe in God - I would LOVE to have strong faith...I'm really jealous of those who have such strong convictions but I just don't. And I don't know how to make myself believe in things that I just don't.

All that said, I don't really have any answers for you but I have similar feelings and thought I'd let you know you aren't alone.

sugarbear1

Clarence S is my grand sponsor's grand sponsor. He got June sober. She was Bill's sponsor until she passed. Bill is Ed's sponsor who now sponsors me. My other (first sponsor who lives in CA is a female & I have a large female network).

It's ok to have your own concept of a higher power. I do know the AA program, done through the AA big book, is the program I work.

I have no experience with your situation. You can get another sponsor who uses the book Alcoholics Anonymous.

Ed had a deep belief that God did not exist. He has had spiritual experiences. He now has his own conception of his hp. I have my conception & have had spiritual experiences. Bill has his hp he calls Jesus.

Your conception doesn't need to match your sponsor's.

Supercrew

Although I am not a believer, and I did not do the steps, the experience that I had when I finally lost the mental obsession to drink felt like an awakening of sorts, and it is what many of the AA people I have spoke to described their "spiritual enlightening" to be like.

I am not saying I got the "spiritual awakening" without doing the steps, but once I lost the obsession to drink and I was happy with the decision it felt like a huge weight was lifted off of my shoulders. So I think if you follow what you believe, and use a method you are comfortable with, you will be able to find that feeling if you take action and truly want to quit drinking forever.

sugarbear1

Ed has 26 years sober. Bill has 34.

We don't need a Christian experience to have spiritual experience(s).

I've had more than one.

susanlauren

Crisco,
What matters is your conception of a Higher Power. We start from where we are, not from where someone else is at. One does not need to be Christian in order to work the steps and have a spiritual awakening as a result. Plenty of atheists and agnostics have worked the steps with great success. Spirituality is not religion. AA does not demand that you believe anything. All that is required is a willingness to believe in a Power greater than oneself. There is no doctrine that one must believe. God really does not make too difficult of terms with those who seek Him. Why not ask God to reveal Himself to you? I found the process, as worked directly from the Big Book, most effective. No need to convert to a religious faith.
Susan

CarolD

I moved this over from Alcoholism as it is clearly about AA steps....sponsorship and those are AA matters...

I arrived in AA already a firm believer in my God of forgivness and love....by learning the AA Steps and applying them
my faith has continued to deepen. God and I connect several times each day....that gives me peace and emotional balance.


Let's all have another day of awesome recovery...

CarolD

Here is the official AA guideline on sponsorship......

Alcoholics Anonymous : Pamphlets

I don't see a single AA member listed there as the "star" sponsor.

Music

Yeah, I hear you crisco. I get turned off when someone tries to force something down my throat too. One day though I asked myself....self...who do you think came up with the idea of evolution?? Who gave Darwin his ideas? Who plants thoughts in my head about what to do and what not to do? Why am I still alive to enjoy sobriety instead of being locked up, insane or dead as maybe I should be with the way I treated myself, the places booze took me and the people I associated with? Was God really there for me all that time while I was drinking?? Just a couple things to ponder!

Boleo

1: Results are the real goal to doing the steps so don't throw the baby out with the bath-water.

2: Clarance was one of the most prolific sponsors in AA history. He worked with over 5,000 alcoholics and claimed 75% of them stayed sober. Some say he was crass, abrasive and arrogant - but who cares so long as he was getting results.

3. Where ever you see a noun you are not comfortable with, try using this as a placeholder:

"I believe in the Principle of ________" (Jesus, God & Christianity).

IMNSHO Principles are MORE important than any nouns in recovery. Principles are verbs not nouns. Nouns are not action. "Faith without works is dead" means nouns don't do the job.

Jfanagle

A "moment of clarity" is what caused me to examine and ultimately embrace my particular concept of a Higher Power (God). I use Shamanism and multi-theistic powers greater than myself. I sponsor some very fundamental Christians and it all seems to work. At least we all have coffee and meetings together and everyone shows up sober, week after week and then year after year.

Point being, the individual seems to find a Higher Power as long as he/she is searching. Willingness, work and being of service seem to work.

You sound sincere and seeking will keep you from drinking in my experience. Keep up the good work and be good to yourself.

Jon

Sugah

I rejected religion, period, until I took a mythology class in college. In it, we read "The Power of Myth" by Joseph Campbell (more accurately, it's the text of an interview with him conducted by Bill Moyers). Campbell devoted his life to the study of the religion and mythologies within a very wide range of cultures. He demonstrated how widely varied cultures create for themselves very similar myths -- creation myths, myths about birth and death, hero myths. His thesis is that we create our myths as a means of explaining that which we cannot express in any other way -- our longing for the divine.

And I say all that to also say that I don't think it's necessary to ascribe to one particular way of conceiving God. If you examine all the different established conceptions of God, you'd see a lot of similarities, and most folks who come up with their own personal conceptions usually include a list of more or less Universal qualities: Love, Purpose, and order within the chaos.

This doesn't help you much in deciding to what to do with your sponsor. I had a sponsor who was convinced I'd become Christian through the steps, and I didn't. I've gained a lot of respect and admiration for the figure of Christ, but here I am -- still sober, serene (most of the time!), and a Child of God, whatever God turns out to be.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

recycle

I remain agnostic on the nature of Gawd. My sponsor, bless his pointed born again head, is a Christian. We've had our ups and downs, but that relationship works because we stick to the program. The program is found in the first 164 pages of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. The rest of the supporting literature should be taken with a grain of salt and set aside when it is a hindrance rather than support.

PaperDolls

I spent many years thinking I had to have OTHER people's concept of God. I finally realized, as it says in the 12x12 that it's MY concept of God. A faith that works, for ME.

The only way for me to connect with it, a Higher Power, I had to come up with MY concept and understanding, how ever little understanding there is. That's all it takes. It continues to grow and change.

I'm fully aware that the program is based on Christian Principals and God but I choose to go by the steps which say, Higher Power as you understand Him. Not at others in AA (even the so-called "star" sponsors) understand Him.

shaun00

I was sponsored using one book......a BB 12 step sponsor.
My sponsor encouraged me to have my own experience......not his.
I choose my own concept of a god.....and left behind an old twisted up childhood one.
I came to believe over time......because the willingness was there.
Simple program for a complicated person.

Tommyh

my sponsor`s concept of God is none of my business.My concept of God is none of his.
The problem comes when we start sharing our concept of God or a higher power rather than share the path we was on to come to that concept.
Share the path of the steps,and let each other come to his/her own conception

MemphisBlues

A young dude in the rooms shared this not so long ago: "I think if someone is looking for spirituality, they've got it."

Veritas1

OP...Read We Agnostics....again...and again...

Your post describes the chapter exactly.

Also, for what it's worth...if you are having a hard time with the "existance of God", and Him as your HP.

I heard a member of AA say to think of the fellowship as your HP.

Certainly here are a group of people that have more power than you.

Also...I think when in doubt...one would start with willingness to believe...

Being willing, versus "struggling", may be helpful.

Be open to a new experience. Look up the set aside prayer.

NYCDoglvr

I am an agnostic coming up on 20 years. I have a higher power but I'm not a Christian. My first sponsor never talked about her specific higher power, only taught me how to find mine. My present sponsor is an atheist with 25 years; we use Hazelton's Twelve Step Pamphlets which are secular.

You can pick anything as a higher power. A tree. Or, GOD = group of drunks.

If this sponsor is a hamper to your sobriety, there is nothing wrong with finding another sponsor you identify more closely.

Boleo

Well, not exactly. You can't pick your nose... LOL!