UpperbucksAAguy

that he has no attitude of Holier Than Thou, nothing whatever except the sincere desire to be helpful; that there are no fees to pay, no axes to grind, no people to please, no lectures to be endured—these are the conditions we have found most effective. After such an approach many take up their beds and walk again.- BB page 18-19. I find this valuable to the new man and the man about to be a sponsor. And even for the seasoned sponsor. "these are the conditions we have found most effective."

Is ass-kicking sponsorship a part of the Big Book?

oh2exhale

Hi Upperbucks,
I havent found the A** kicking part. I Have found "suggestions". Have you ever tried to use "suggestions" on a donkey? Asses don't take suggestions. I was listening to a woman saying she needed to find a new sponsor because she found her current one too easy to lie to. Huh? The great thing, or I should say ONE of the many great things about AA is you gotta want it. Flip side of that is -noone drags you to the drink, and noone can drag you to AA. God Bless!

UpperbucksAAguy

Or through the steps.

It isn't the sponsor- sponsors aren't lie detectors. I follow what the book says.

If he is not interested in your solution, if he expects you to act only as a banker for his financial difficulties or a nurse for his sprees, you may have to drop him
until he changes his mind. This he may do after he gets hurt some more.- BB page 95

Mark75

I think we have a responsibility to tell the truth, to be a mirror when necessary... rigorous honesty and all that...

Of course it should be done in a supportive way, as an advocate or coach, not as a critic.

UpperbucksAAguy

I can't be rigorously honest for you about you and where you are. I can model how I am rigorously honest. I will often do a 5th step ( for lack of a better term) with the men I sponsor. They learn how do one, they learn alot more as well. If they want what I have, they will do what I do.

There is nothing wrong with being blunt however. I get sick of going to funerals and will say so regularly

FredG

A$$ kicking sponsorship may not be part of the BB - but a willingness to do whatever it takes to get the program is a requirement of those seeking continued sobriety. The whatever it takes part is where your sponsor talks and you listen, seasoned with what you learn at the meetings from those who have succeeded.

The reason so many people bounce in and out of the program is because of an unwillingness to listen and being allowed to justify it with excuses. Just saying...

Boleo

"Giving a newcomer options is not an act of kindness".

- Clarence Snyder

Mark75

Of course not...

But what if I don't see it myself?

What we can't see... doesn't matter if it's getting sober or learning any skill, I need my teachers to point out what I miss, what I'm doing wrong.

aablessed29

i am glad I had an A#% kicking sponsor, i would not be sober today if I did not have one that needed to be on me

UpperbucksAAguy

And if the sponsee is not willing what are we directed to do by the Big Book? ( it's on page 95)

But they do have options. Plenty of them. Chapter 7 guides me to tell them to follow their conscience. That is an option.

Going to any lengths is about the steps, not fealty to an all-knowing sponsor. It is a fellowship, not a followership

I'll stick with the Big Book and the message it conveys

Mark75

I know Bill W hoped to raise the bottom for those still "with a car in the garage"... High bottom alcoholics may not have the same level of desperation as low bottom alcoholics... So, what do you mean you will stick with the Big Book, exactly?

awuh1

Interesting words comming from Clarence Snyder. When Clarence had 15 months of sobriety he caused a "near riot" when he publicly
disagreed with his 'sponsor', Dr. Bob, and walked out of an oxford group meeting in Ackron and started the first AA meeting in Cleveland. Its reported that when Clarence announced he would do this this on May 10th 1939, Doc stood up and said, "You can't do this." Clarence replied, "There's nothing to talk about."

You can sure tell an alcoholic…..but you can’t tell um much.

I find suggestion works best. Confrontation has its place, but only if it’s well seasoned, with compassion.

RobbyRobot

Do what you do, to get what you have?

Well, not really required, although that is one way to have a basic no joy no frills sponsee-sponsor relationship. Not for me, thanks.

Not to be a jerk here, but if you have what was promised in AA sobriety, all I need for you to do is explain to me, from your own experience, what AA sobriety means to you, and how you live the steps, in your daily affairs. From there, I can learn alot more than simply doing as you do. It works better if i do for myself, you know?

I don't need to 'do as you do' to have what you have. And if I do, if you insist, then you don't have what AA promised, imo.

I hope we don't fall into a game of semantics here now.

I also suppose you could just say your following instructions and I'm to do the same...

aablessed29

keep coming back

UpperbucksAAguy

High bottom drunks- which compared to where these guys were in the early days, most of us qualify as high bottom.

Sticking with the Big Book is pretty cut and dry- I follow the directions in the book. I do things outside the Big Book, but when I am working with an alcoholic whatever I am doing should be in line with the Big Book, not against it.

I think we are talking about the same thing here- doing what I do is the steps, not the exact methodology or time limit. The sponsor actually needs the sponsee more than the sponsee needs the sponsor. The sponsor needs to give back what was given, not direct the experience of another

RobbyRobot

Okay, I'll work with we're talking about the same thing. Cool.

The sponsor needs the sponsee more than the other way around?

I agree sponsors are not to direct the experience of another, for in that effort is only ego and vanity as reward. I also agree giving back is an actual need requiring fulfilment, and not simply a gracious behavior which can simply be passed around like a box of chocolates.

Over the years I've learned giving back is not always simply being a sponsor, there is more to the give-back experience then sponsorship responsibilities. Having changed out my pysche, which for me, the change process was began with AA program spiritual sobriety, I know personally that sponsorship is only a basic way to give back, or otherwise, pass on, what has been given to me. Another way of saying the same thing: Living with the totality of life is more than AA has to offer this alcoholic, even though my life would be nothing without my sobriety, which, as I said, was born from AA. I don't live to be sober, I am sober to be alive, and more, to be me, myself, and I, which of course I could never do while drunk.

So for me, then, I've not ever needed my sponsees more than they needed me. If that is what works for you, AAguy, if that is what fulfills you personally, no way I'm against it, I've just not experienced my relationships with my sponsees as you have described. I hope you know that you're speaking from and as a witness to your own experiences, and not as a rule for all AA members to emulate, as a condition to experience AA sobriety, yeah?

RobbyRobot

No, I haven't experienced the Big Book itself as emulating some serious 'ass-kicking', lol.

I have experienced the results of my understanding, and being responsible to my understanding, and that of others, as shared in the BB, and within the fellowship, as an opportunity for some good ass-kicking, and yet that really has to do with the dynamic personality of whom ever, and not from what is written and storied with in the Big Book.

The Big Book is a book of simple examples, and proven experiences, of weathered and true sober alcoholics sharing what works, and what dosen't, when getting started, maintaining, and successfully living a recovered life rich in abundance with AA sober spiritual sobriety in answer to the fatal misery of alcoholism.

tomsteve

cant agree more. when i got into AA, my sponsor woud sit in one of the 3 chairs across from me( he wasnt my sponsor at the time) and listen to me ramble on and on and on. then hed say," its yer lie, you gotta live with it." he let me see how much of a lie my life was. how else would i learn without somone callin me out on my BS?
now when i talk to him, he doesnt beat around the bush. sometimes i agree and very rarely do i disagree, but he lets me do that. one thing he does every time i call with a problem is," well, it sounds like___ stepwork, but lets back up to the 1st step."

the BB says, i believe in the doctors opinion, that to hold the attention of an alcoholic, the message must have depth and weight.
i must remember when working with another alcoholic that honesty without compassion is brutality.

tomsteve

and it doesnt matter if its my sponsor or anyone else in AA or this world, they cant kick my ass better than i can.

2granddaughters

I used to pi$$ and moan at the meeting in the beginning and one oldtimer used to say "Still want it your way, eh ??".

God that made me mad but it was right on....

One man's perceived a$$ kicking is another man's "Thanks for giving me just what I needed".


All the best.

Bob R