I guess not... but I've sat through plenty of it at meetings and said nothing.

What I hear is that everyone here is a winner in recovery.through AA with maybe an exception.. We have defied these published statistics... No matter how off base they are ..they are not damaging to us...but they are damaging to the newcomer who may focus on failure rather than success.

I had just enough humility to listen to this lady who told me to shut my mouth..sit there and listen...and that she would tell me when it was time to speak...That occurred on my 90th day..and I revealed how I stayed sober for the benefit of helping a newcomer..

That lady saved my life.. With that remark..I haven't talked to her in years..but she was the first and only sponsor I ever had..an unbreakable spiritual connection..

Well, I don't believe meetings are the place to be having a thiest/non-thiest debate.

Interesting thread.

Over the holidays I was so close to a relapse my mouth was watering for what I was going to put in it. Somehow I am making the shift from the group of AA and my husband, family and myself (not wanting to let down) to wanting to be obedient to my higher power. It is an exciting new phase of my recovery!!

Thank you for posting this, Ago. :)

I feel the same way too.

I am of little use to the still suffering alcoholic if I am not sober myself.

DK, I asked you not too long ago if you were doing the cafeteria style of recovery, taking a little of this and a little of that from several different approaches, and you said yes.

I was trying to get a better understanding of where you were. I tried to be supportive when you first got here to SR because I can appreciate how difficult it is when you're first sobering up. :)

I consider myself open-minded, and I don't for a second begin to think that my way is the only way. I respect forms of recovery that differ from my own.

Bear in mind that I am only basing my observations on what you post in the AA forum.

It's been my personal experience that when something begins to bring more negatives to my life than positives, then I need to stop and reassess what I'm doing.

I'm not quite sure what you are getting out of AA. What I do see here are always negative comments about AA. Personally I see them as barbs, and I am sure there are others who don't see them as barbs. We all have our own 'filters' on life.

So I have two questions for you. What are you getting out of AA?

Why do you continue to post in the AA forum when you can't seem to add anything positive to the posts here in regards to AA as a whole?

AA has worked for me. Therefore I post in the AA forum, and a few others that I qualify for.

I don't post in the secular connections forum because that's not my bag.

I don't post in the Christians in recovery forum either because that's not my bag.

Can you dig deep and give me honest answers?

Why don't we ever discuss the 97% failure rate of these $12,000.00 Rehabs that everyone seems to think is a magical place to go get cured? It's always about AA for some reason.

The answer to this debate because AA refuses to take a detailed, internal study of the relapse rate. Until a university launches into partnership with AA and does a massive study of the relapse rate and the factors about it, you will never get a quantifiable estimate.

The drive for the study needs comes from AA. It needs come from somebody inside the program who attends meetings a lot and have a background in statistical science and addiction science.

The best person to do it is an AA member going for Phd in Addiction Psychology and needs to write original disseration to get his/her Phd. That person would have the motivation and drive to pull it off.

These Magical places called Rehabs get the luxury of prescribing a "Treatment Plan". This usually includes AA. When we fail the rehab gets the luxury of saying that you didn't follow your "Treatment Plan" and places the blame on us. We accept this as the truth. When we fail in AA we get the luxury of pointing fingers and blaming something other than ourselves. A common charactaristic of Alcoholics. We expect AA to do the work while we just sit in meetings. How many actually take all 12 steps? Probably about 3%. That's just an educated guess. 97% say that AA doesn't work. Another educated guess. I wish I had a dollar for every alcoholic that just sat in meetings expecting something to happen. It doesn't just happen so it must be AAs fault. "It surely couldn't be mine".
Everything comes out in the blame game except the truth. The truth is we didn't want to get sober the way AA says we can get sober. We probably didn't really want to get sober at all!
Once our ship stops sinking we see no more need to go to AA. We go out and get drunk again and say "I tried AA and it didn't work" Did we really try? Probably not!

Since I am the one who brought up the subject of foxholes
:)
Let's see what the orginal topic was and who actually said what.
#37 Note the rather recent date

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...go-back-2.html

No, it did not come from AA
No, I have never heard the quote in AA.

It had nothing to do with this topic either.
Nor was the discussion about our brave veterns.

Just an FYI for those who are new r to our Forum
especially those new to AA.

I'm totally with Ago ... I plan to stay recovered until I die sober.
:yup:

I should probably quit going to AA meetings and reading/posting on this forum. I feel like anything that is secular and/or not AA is constantly being scapegoated and demeaned in both venues, and the overall experience seems to be doing me more harm than good. Sorry to upset you.

Peace,

DK

Actually No....no one actually says anything about "secular" or "not AA" either in meetings or in the twelve step (AA) forums, we talk about AA, and the program of recovery as outlined in the book, except for you actually.

You call AA "Hocus Pocus" and say it requires a "supernatural" (not spiritual) belief here. (which is not true by the way)

That's fairly antagonistic

I mean this is the twelve step (AA) forum, so of course we talk about AA, and in AA meetings we talk about.....AA

So then you say you go to AA meetings and have to listen to them talk about AA???

The Horror!!!!

Listen Paul, I like you a lot, you know that, I'm going to point some things out here that might not be too comfortable for you though.

One is, There are millions and millions of people who go to AA and get and stay sober, there is only one Paul...and while he has a small amount of "clean time" at the moment, the truth is you don't know how to get and stay sober and be happy, that's just a fact, I mean no disrespect, but how much can it hurt to actually listen to people who know how to get and stay sober?

The saying is, "If you keep doing what you were doing, you are going to keep getting what you were getting, and I will guarantee you keep going down this road of belligerent denial what you are going to get is drunk.

That quote from the OP sound familiar? Sound like anyone here? Sounds like me 17 years ago when I knew it all and couldn't get or stay sober, that's for sure.



When I had about 30 days or so I shared my vast experience and wisdom in a meeting of AA but I had the bad luck to have my Grandsponsor there, this was the time he grabbed me by the ear and dragged me out mid share.

He asked me and I ask you now Paul,

"Can you teach anyone in that room how to drink?"

"Can You teach anyone how to stay sober?"

(there were many people in that room, as on this board with well over twenty years of sobriety)

If I couldn't teach anyone how to drink, and I couldn't teach anyone how to get sober or to live happily once they were sober, what was I doing shooting my mouth off? Who was I helping?

Are your comments helpful to anyone Paul?

Are you helping Newcomers?



When I share now, it's exactly that, a "share", I share my "experience, strength, and Hope" I don't share my "opinion" or my "advice" and I don't just "pick fights" unless I see someone say something that will be harmful to another AAer, then I'm nothing nice, you've seen that.

Included in that are my failures and successes, but every single time I post, even if it's antagonistic in nature, it's to help someone, it's to improve someone's life, it's to maybe help somebody see something that they didn't see before.

You are welcome to post here, of course you are, but why not try to be helpful?

What do you accomplish by "stirring the pot" really? Are you helping anyone? Are you helping yourself?

I've explained repeatedly how I was able to work the steps as an atheist and an agnostic to you, but you insist on "picking fights" and being derogatory to AA on the AA forums no less.

Why?

What is accomplished?

It's kind of like the "Red Pages" or whatever that site is that knocks AA, Bill was a Womanizer, whatever blah blah blah.

A lot of that is true, but Bill Wilson founded a program that saved millions of lives, who has "red site man" or whatever, who has he helped?

The people here just in this thread I guarantee have 12 stepped 100's if not 1000's of people, possibly saving their lives just like their lives were saved.

How many people have you helped today Paul?

Just some thoughts, and I'm not "chasing you away" and I really like you, but this is known as "asking the hard questions" I want you here and I want you sober, but I'd also like to see you get yer head outta yer a$$

Lets see you start being helpful Paul.

Did I miss the start of 'kick DK' week?

I used to like this forum - it was a robust and thought provoking arena of dissenting opinions often about the nature of being an alcoholic, and not just exclusively concerned with AA nuts and bolts matters. Even as a non AA member I found it worthwhile.

Now, for a while, it seems it's a place where everyones free to have an opinion - unless it differs from the one most people have.

I don't agree with every opinion I read - sometimes not even DKs - but I'm damn glad to be somewhere where I can read them all and make up my own mind.

I've never seen the kind of personal attacks I've seen here anywhere else on the board.

It's not a particularly good advertisement IMO, and I don't think it does anybody much good - I hardly read here anymore, let alone post, but I thought I'd throw my 2c in.

I might also add I see DK in Newcomers a hell of a lot more than I see most of the names here, and if his recovery is 'cafeteria'? it seems to be working for nigh on 90 days now.

He should be congratulated for that, not villified, surely?

I'll let myself out...
D

Once again, how do you quantify willingness???? How many people show up at AA meetings for the wrong reasons? And aside from the testimony you hear from all the "Momma Cleo" Wannabes in AA meetings around the world, people do show up in AA by mistake. How do they factor in to statistics? Attending meetings does not equal AA recovery.

Actually AA has a good hsitory with athiests/agnostics. They made incredible contributions to the Big Book ( God as we understand him) Jim Burwell was an athiest:

Jim Burwell Biography

You however, consistently attack AA and then whine when the fallacy of your misunderstanding is called into question. No one here is bashing agnostics. I thank God that the first Athiests to show up in AA had the internal fortitude to forge the path they did.I know athiests in AA who have great sobriety, I believe others here have mentioned the same opinion, but you read what you want. Post, or don't.

Tomas, I don't doubt your stats.

Couple possible explanations.

I think as AA has become more well-known, we are getting get alot more 'potentials' in the rooms. I.e, people who just want to check it out but aren't really ready .

I think we are also getting many more alcoholic/drug addicts , who tend to be younger.
I don't have any stats but it's been my observation that there is a correlation between age and staying with program. On top of that ,these people have two demons to fight.

......Or you should read your posts to see if maybe you aren't coming across as a haughty, know- it -all. "My program is better than yours,nah-nah"

As an (formerly very skeptical) AAer, I wish to engage in no controversy about which program works better. All I know is that AA has worked for me and many others. AA isn't an intellectual or 'theory' program;we don't go around explaining how the step of AA remove the obsession to drink. We simply look at the results from people who have honestly worked the program.

If you found something that works, I congratulate you, as alcoholism is a horrible disease.

I doubt the stats are anywhere near correct,more than likely,the reverse is true.
unfortunately Joe and Charlie and others in AA have used them from an AA platform to spread falsehoods around

I think the statistics? came from an article in the Grapevine
a "study" done by an AA panel in '91.

Just what I remember ..and I could be mistaken.

:) I was very active in a large home group in '91.
No one I met was ever contacted for the head count.

I totally understand why people are very pro AA and i'm not just talking about being sober. It is a non profit organisation who is helping people who society, in the majority, see as not having a real problem like cancer etc. It costs me €1300 a month for my private alcohol counselling which is approx. $1800 US which i pay out of my own pocket and am happy to do so. How many people can afford to do that btw? Think about it.

If i didn't have that money then i would go to AA, as what other choice would i have...some goverment funded idiot trying to help me...yeah went through that in UK 12 weeks at 21 with a pshychologist...that helped me...not!

I've been to AA a few times over the year, i have even read the big book from cover to cover. This is where i am:

1. I accept i am powerless over alcohol
2. I am beginning to understand and work on that there are things i cannot control and things i can, also that i can relax and let the path of my life evolve without always trying to control everything
3. I thank god, as i understand him, don't care what other people think is their god/hp, this is my god and i thank him out loud every morning for another day no matter how i feel...it rocks to be sober!

The rest of the stuff i am doing is getting a balance in my life and trying to be the best person i can be and making a positive difference to everyone that knows me now and in the future.

See there are a few hints there that i would not have got unless i had attended an aa meeting and/or read the big book, so i guess if i keep going strong, 105 days so far, then i would even consider myself as a positive AA statistic as it obviously has helped to change my life for the better, even without working the program.

I'm sober, I'm happier than i have ever been and happy for everyone else who is sober, AA, counselling, SR, reading, whatever works for you...just be aware, as i am, that AA is proven, it works, and has been tested for a long time if you work the program...your or my way is not proven and therefore is more likely not to work, thats all.