kennethhoff

Last night I could not sleep. I awoke and I was obsessed with a sometimes friend who I had become so pre-occupied with. It is no different than the obsession an alcoholic feels for a drink. And as I started to journal, I realized so much more that it is about such an overwhelming unreal fear of abandonment. It kills me sometimes. Such fear about being helpless, alone, and not safe. I hate it so much.
Three years ago I hurt my back and had a traumatic recovery, and I know that only made it worse. I was all alone in my house, unable to move and get around, in bed for week after week with nothing but myself. I had a nervous breakdown I think. And I know that when I get really scared and feel unsafe, I get obsessed with writing or calling her, and this is what drove her away.
I get so angry that my fathers alcoholism and our family structure put this into my head. I am trying so hard to see it and let it go.
I gave in this morning and wrote her. And now I battle the feelings of what she will reply. Why should I care? She can't help or save me! Only I can do that. Yet I still feel scared. That damn abandonment issue. It just kills me over and over. I just don't want to feel like this anymore!

GingerM

I wish I could say something that would help you Ken.

You likened your fear of abandonment with the obsession an alcoholic feels to drink. I think that's a very good analogy. And like alcoholics, for me, the only way I got past my fear of abandonment was to hit rock bottom.

After numerous highly toxic relationships (both of the romantic and platonic kind), I hit a point where I realized that the only times I was relatively peaceful was when I was alone. Not that I didn't squirm in my own skin about being alone, but at least I wasn't being actively made miserable. I decided at that point to make it my goal to become the crazy old lady with the 30 cats (honestly, that was my life's goal).

After spending three years essentially alone, with only a couple of newer friends who I had no real emotional attachment to, did I realize that I could live alone and be happy.

Continue to battle those feelings of what she will reply. *Hands you my joust* Face them head on, examine them from every angle including how you would feel if you were in her shoes, sit down a write out a list of the pro's and con's of worrying about what she will reply. Write a list of the pros and cons of being alone, then examine each point one at a time.

As an example, here is my pro/con list of being alone:

Cons: loneliness, feeling that I don't 'belong' to anyone, feeling that I have no one to turn to if I need help, not enjoying activities as much because I don't have anyone to share them with.

Pros: I can do whatever I want, whenever I want without having to worry about my schedule meshing with anyone else's, not having to deal with other people's baggage, being in a quiet environment where I can say what I want no matter how unPC it is (I talk to my critters a lot), being able to get in terrible mood funks and not have to explain it to anyone else, being the master of my domain for everything from which drawer I keep my socks in to where I'm going on vacation to where I hang the pictures in my house, not having to be afraid for my physical or emotional safety.

Looking at the 'cons' list item by item:

loneliness: well, there are always clubs I can join to meet people. I don't necessarily have to be in an intimate relationship (romantic or platonic) to not be lonely. I can volunteer and maybe do some good for me AND for someone else. I can donate my time to seniors' centers just listening to the people whose own families have forgotten them (I can't tell you how rewarding that is).

fear of not 'belonging' to anyone else: when I did 'belong' to someone else, was I happy? Genuinely, freely happy? Or was I just there because I was terrified to not be there? Should anyone 'belong' to anyone else?

feeling that I have no one to rely on should I need help: realistically, I have a pretty vast support network should the fit hit the shan. I may not have people who live with me, or who I see daily, but I know that if I was desperate for help there are people all over the world who would do what they could.

not enjoying activities because I don't have someone to share them with: well, that one is still there. I don't like going on vacations alone, it seems the fun is in the sharing, not so much the doing. So I changed my activities to things that are more 'solo' oriented. I began reading like mad (fiction, not to better myself, just to experience new worlds), I took up fine needlework (crochet, cross stitch, needlepoint) and became very good at them (good enough that I'm still debating trying to start up a business of doing custom needlework). I haven't yet, but really want to, take up furniture building (need to take a class, need to have time, need to have tools). I took classes at colleges just to learn something new. I'm currently taking voice and piano lessons - I took it up at the age of 37. I still stink at it, but it's extremely intellectually stimulating, and something that's really a solo activity. And each time I get a little better, I feel more confident in myself.

The pros list is pretty self explanatory and I don't think any of them are negatively skewed.

I do feel for you. I suppose I got past my fear of abandonment when I got to the point where my fear of staying in the relationship exceeded my fear of being alone. And I got angry at myself for doing the same thing ...again.

I hope you can let go of this for even just a few minutes today. I can relate to how much it can eat you up, and how hard it is to let go of. Maybe a day of watching all three Lord of the Rings movies would be good - something to 'wash' the thoughts out of your head for 12 hours? It won't fix the problem, but it might give you a bit of a break from it.

Do you have any pets? If you live in an apartment, I would suggest a blue crowned conure - handraised. They are snuggly, clownish, and can give you some'one' to talk to (sometimes they even talk back!). I often found that my relationships with my critters were more rewarding than my relationships with people.

We're here, and we're listening.

kennethhoff

Thanks Ginger. After I did my morning exercises/stretching and prayers/meditation, I thought about it alot. I realized that now she is gone, I am grateful to have these feelings come up. It's still hard as hell, but the only way is for "heightened neurosis". It has to come up and come out, before it gets better. I tried to remember what I learned as a buddhist. To see the thoughts and then let them go.
Regardless of what she says, those feelings will still be there. They actually have nothing to do with her. They are simply MY fears from childhood alcoholism. And for this I am actually grateful that she said good bye, otherwise I would have never found Alanon at all.
Once I can remember to let go, and let Buddha, I find I am peaceful. But what a struggle !!!!

This week I start summer college classes. And by next week I shall be volunteering at a homeless shelter. One goal I have is to take a grant-writing course over the summer as well thru adult-ed, learn as much as I can, and develop a plan to pool local non-profit resources for a county wide educational skills center. It's a big project, but ever since I gave up my old career in computers, I know it will be more in line with what I want to do, and what I'm here for.

Too much time on my hands to think sometimes. It is definitely a battle, probably will be for awhile. But better now than when my life is over and it's too late, right?

I appreciate all your thoughts. Just know they do help

Ken

kennethhoff

God, why do I do it? Why does a person do something they know is not good for them, but they just can't stop? It is such an obsession. I don't drink, smoke, do drugs, gamble, etc.. I eat well, take care of myself, and try so hard to do whatever I can to help myself with Alanon, CoDa, therapy, ... I try to go back to school, try to volunteer,... and yet I still have an obsession with ONE person in my life. No one else, just ONE.
Why would a person continue to do something when they know it is not good for them, and destructive to their own sanity?
All I did was write(email) someone who I cannot let go. I told her things were starting to look up. And here I still sit obsessing on what she will write back. Even after she told me NOT to write anymore, I can't stop myself and I just don't know why. Why would I do this to myself, what could I possibly be getting from it? I'd do anything to stop, anything....

GingerM

I wish I could answer that for you. Do you feel like there's something as yet unresolved? Is it resolved, but the resolution is not to your liking?

In psychology, there is a concept called RuR - repeat until resolved. Usually it applies to situations where a person is unhappy with the outcome, so they repeat the behavior, hoping to find a way to make it right. Often this is a big part of codependent or abusive relationship cycles. Do you feel that you didn't fully resolve this?

Would it help to frame it in such a way that sometimes a lack of resolution is a resolution in and of itself (how I had to frame one of my very bad relationships to get me to finally quit obsessing about him)?

I can relate to the feelings, and even to the actions. I had someone who grabbed my heart so strongly I felt like I couldn't get by without him. I had to leave him for my own phsyical safety and yet was always strongly drawn back to him, including writing him letters which I knew weren't going to be appreciated. I finally had to absorb that there never was going to be a resolution to the relationship that I could be happy with, and that I had to accept that as THE resolution.

Perhaps you're obsessing because you don't really understand what happened (which could provide a kind of closure)?

I wish I could give better insight into this. I *am* still listening, whether I can provide anything more than a sounding board or not.

DesertEyes

Hey there Ken,

I'm sorry to hear you're going thru such pain.

That's why it's called a "disease". Because we are powerless over it. If you are an ACoA like me then you have this disease of "codie-ism". I am adicted to relationships in the same manner that an alchoholic is addicted to booze or an addict to drugs.

It says it right in the first step of any program. "Admited we were powerles over xxxxx, that our lives had become unmanageable". You are addicted to this particular woman, I was addicted to a different woman.

I can tell you what worked for me. I adapted the 12 steps to my own understanding of a HP. From what you've shared on this board it seems to me like you have a very solid understanding of your own HP, so all you need to do is erase the word "God" from the 12 steps and insert your own.

You are already familiar with Al-anon and Coda, as am I. When I get tangled in my "disease" I go back to the beginning and start the steps all over again. I call up my sponsor and my real life friends and do the whole thing from the beginning. In your post it sounds like you are ready to start step one again. Take some time to look at that step in the literature. Take the time to admit to real life people in your real life meetings that you are powerless over this disease.

From reading your post I see the words "I can't stop myself". I tried to stop myself and I wasn't able to. That's where step 2 comes in for me. Made a decision to turn my will and my life over to the care of God as I understood him. When I say the words "I can't stop myself" I am _not_ turning over my disease to my HP, I am still trying to be my own HP. Perhaps you can look at step two in the literature and see in what ways you are still trying to control this "disease" instead of letting your HP do the healing.

The work I do in recovery is _not_ intended to cure myself from the disease. It's intended to allow my HP to grant me a daily reprieve from the disease. For me it's all in the attitude. When I maintain my "spiritual condition" I am free of the disease, and when I don't then it grips me again.

Am I making sense?

Mike

kennethhoff

Thank you Ginger and Mike. What you both say are true. I know I have a disease and I am completely powerless against it by my self. I have tried and tried, and I am only going insane again. I pray every morning to my HP that I will do anything to let it go. It's so hard to accept a disease that I have no control over. And I know control is at it's root. It sounds so simple, so intellectual, so makes sense. And then after awhile, I am ok. But then it comes right back. It is nothing short of pure hell.

I am grateful that I have SOMETHING to do today. And with any luck, I will get thru just today. And write more later.

Thank you both so much.
Ken

GettingFree

Hi Ken,

I'm not a subscriber to the disease model and my take is slightly different. I don't have a disease, I did have a really painful childhood. I look to the past and by looking to the past I've been better able to break the kind of obsession you are struggling with. I strongly believe that our childhood wounds control and shape the feelings and experiences we have as adults. I have been where you are and here's my take.

That one person you say you have an obsession with is probably not the person you're thinking of. My guess is that this person reminds you of someone else. From very long ago. From your childhood. That person is just a woman here today, in a body, in this lifetime. But chances are, she represents the embodiment of everything you wanted and needed so very long ago. If it wasn't this particular individual, it would be another. If you lived in another part of the world, you would have met someone else who would be in this role. It's not just this one person. It's the one person, the parent, you needed so long ago to make you feel attached and connected.

The abandonment you spoke of makes us incredibly needy, and fearful of being alone, and when we are separated from what we see as the source of love here in the present, from a 'love object', it terrifies us, sets up a sense of panic, and we obssess. It may not be a great analogy, but think of the infant separated from the source of food, the breast, when it is hungry. Nothing else exists then in its world. It can't function without it, it will scream, and scream, until it is provided with what it needs, or simply tire itself out from exhaustion -- and absorb the pain of unmet needs.

We believe that 'if only' we were with that person, our pain would stop. In a historical way that's true. If our parents had been able to be loving nurturing parents who met our needs for love as children, our pain would have stopped. But they didn't.

So for me there's been two things I've had to do:

1) Really process the pain of my early abandonment. I believe strongly that the pain of the past will continue to control us if we do not experience it, feel it, through all the snot and tears, and literally, get it out of our bodies (I feel pain is in us cellularly). The anger that you spoke of? Yes, great to get it out and can be galvanzing. But underneath that anger is a whole lot of pain. I do EMDR with my therapist which has been very helpful in clearing out and lessening the impact of early trauma.

2) Develop ways of parenting myself and feeling attached to the universe on my own, which I continue to work on. When I am experiencing something along the lines you are, I have a mantra: "I am attached to the universe. I am connected. I am whole". It is my way of grounding myself and affirming that I am whole as I am -- that despite not having been attached to my parents as a child, I am whole and attached to something much greater. And despite not being attached to someone I love (I can feel these feelings well up during conflict with my partner and I feel 'unattached'), I am whole and I am attached to something much greater.

Also, I have done DNMS with my therapist which has really helped in me developing my 'own' parent.

best
gf

GingerM

Excellent post GF. Now you've got me thinking.

kennethhoff

GF -

Yes, a wonderful post. I have heard about DMNS and have thought about it. Right now my therapy is based on DBT (dialectal behavior therapy). It helps, but only to a point. I have considerd DMNS though.

I have thought about this alot too. This woman represents both my mother AND father. The part of this woman that I loved was that of my Mom. Simply because my mom was everything I would want in a another woman. Kind, caring, so down to earth and positive, the model to me of a incredible human being.
On the other hand was my Dad. A very controlling, selfish, angry, distant person. And this woman has that too alot. Though I wanted her to be like my Mom, she is really more like my dad. She had issues with control, she is very selfish and self-absorbed, untrusting, etc..

And here's the kicker. Twenty years ago when I would cry to my Mom how much I thought this woman was so nice and decent, it was my MOM, who told me to forget her. My mom told me she was a user, a taker, and only out for herself. I kept explaining to my Mom how she just didn't know her, and if she knew her like I did, etc... But now I look back, I see Mom knew best. How in the world did she know then what I couldn't see?

Well, a few years ago when my Mom passed, we cleaned out her place and found several Alanon books. I never knew she had them and read them, because my Dad was such an abusive man emotionally. My mom needed these books for her OWN sanity. I can still hear her getting so mad at me "Ken, WHY are you doing this to yourself with her? forget her, let her go, she's using you. She's a user and a taker". and so on......

Well it's true and Mom DID know best. And only now can I see that. When this woman came back from overseas six years ago, the last time I physically saw her, me and her got into a fight and she yelled at me, "Ken this is who I am, a selfish self-absorbded person who only cares about herself". I couln't belive it then, and it just wouldn't have kept the fantasy alive. But I guess it seems even she knew it then.
And when in our last talk this woman yelled at me saying it was I who made her feel so guilty all her life for being so needy when I had bad depression and called her for help alot. She was really feeling so guilty about herself because she knew she IS guilty for her own selfishness and how she treated others. Even though she wanted ME to take responsibility for myself, which is definitely what I needed, she blamed ME for something that I wasn't guilty of. Alot of people have depression and health issues. It takes great strength to ask for help. This woman never asks for help, it is ok once in awhile, but too much and one is labled needy in her book. She felt responsible for me and others.
The fact is, she treated her Mom and Dad like they didn't exist, she used others, she'd accept gifts from me because she knew I cared for her, but she never called, or wrote simply from her choice too, not just to answer me, and she has treated others this way. She only kept up with me out of her own guilt of how she acts towards others.
Only NOW do I understand how selfish she is, and I get so so angry. In fact, I read the 5 stages of grief. After the bargaining and denial which I went thru, now comes the terrible terrible anger. And I am filled with rage for being used for so long. All I want is for her to suffer in the same way she used me. I hate to think like that, but she sooo deserves it.

I know the anger will dissipate as long as I continue with Alanon and keep the focus on getting healthy again. But sometimes the anger consumes me. I just wish this stage would move faster.
The next stage is depression and that is where I have to be careful not to get too deep like the past. Luckily I know to get angry now, so I hope I don't wallow when the time comes. Only after that stage can I accept the loss and move on.

It took twenty years of therapy too understand all this. Twenty years and alot of pure hell. I hate that I blame myself alot for losing all that time in my life for caring about such a selfish person. But I guess the fantasy is what kept me alive and survived. Now the fantasy and denial are over, and the anger and hurt are so strong. I've just got to continue to be strong and not get TOOOO angry!

Thank you for a great post GF.

Ken

kennethhoff

GF -

One other thing. If you would like, and whatever you feel is best, either post on this board or PM me directly, I would like to hear more about DMNS. I have often thought about it, and I also heard alot about EMDR and past trauma. I'd like to hear about it too. If it's too much to explain here, PM me and we can talk privately.

Thanks,
Ken

GingerM

Life seems to have a way of repaying these people in kind for their behavior. The man I got so hooked on? Yeah, he's now living in his ex-wife's back yard in a 17 foot motor home with no water or electricity. Life has paid him back for his selfishness in a way far more potent than anything I could have said or done. Perhaps that might give you some solace.

People who live their lives as you're describing her, tend to die alone and afraid because they've chased away anyone who ever might have cared for them. How sad it is for them, yet I have no pity for them.

DesertEyes

I don't wish my ex any kind of hardship. Doing so just turns me into the kind of person she became. Any harm that comes to her is going to cause great pain to those who love her. My ex does not exist in a vacuum, she has a Mother who prays for her every night, and a daughter who worries about her. She has grandkids that miss her and friends who miss her happiness and laughter.

I pray for her, and for all those who suffer from this horror of addiction. They don't deserve to suffer, nobody does. There is hardship enough in this life without me wishing it upon anybody.

Mike

kennethhoff

Yes Mike, I can agree with that. I do not wish others to suffer. When I get mad, I remember what Alanon taught me about distinuishing the disease from the person.
My Dad had a disease. But though I feel not so so angry with him, I am and can be angry about his actions. In the same way, I am not angry at this woman but the actions, the way she treated me and led me on that she cared and I was a friend, that I CAN be angry with. Anger can be a good thing. Everyone feels anger, it is a normal healthy emotion. It is what one does with that anger. For now, I have alot of it towards her. It will come down eventually, I remember to just give it time. But I don't deny it like I used too.

K

cwohio

i just wanted to let you all know that i have throughly enjoyed reading your posts even tho it's painful for me as i identify wih so much that is being written here. i too would be interested in hearing about the above mentioned therapy techniques (i.e. DNMS, EMDR). Right now i'm at a beginning point of sorting all this out - past trauma, childhood stuff. i'm in the love=abandonment stage. thank you for opening my eyes.

GettingFree

Ken and cwohio,

As both of you are asking, I'll post here on the board about my experience with EMDR and DNMS. I dont have much time tonight and I think it'll take some thought, so I'll do this tomorrow.

gf

cwohio

thanks GF - i am just beginning my ACOA issue journey and any insight you can provide will be most welcomed by me. thanks to you all again for some good insight!

GingerM

I'm doing CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) right now, and have never heard of the other two forms, so even though I'm working with one therapy technique right now, I'd still be very interested in hearing about what the other two are.

CW, I wish you patience, luck and a good support network as you begin your path down the ACoA recovery. It doesn't happen overnight, but it can happen if you stick with it, and your life will be a completely different one once you've sorted through a few of the major issues...from there on out it only gets easier and better!

kennethhoff

All -

If one does a search on DNMS in google, there is alot of info about it's history, how it works, practioners who have been trained, etc.. I am lucky I think. I have found 2 in my area and plan to call today.

On another note. Last night I called my closest friend of 30 years because i was in so much pain. I have had so much anger at someone for so long. And we talked for along time and I know it is just a matter of time before I get thru this. When we were done, i thought about it more. This person who I am having so many issues with, was in my mind again. This past Jan, she and I spoke and she blamed me for feeling guilty that I had problems like the abandonment, trust, hurt as a ACOA that we all have, and that she felt I was calling her and thinking I was asking for so much help and that I made her feel guilty because I was needy for being so weak.

So last night, I wrote her an email even after she told me at that time not to communicate anymore. I just couldn't let it go that she could say all that to me, try to make ME feel guilty for nothing I have to be guilty about. And after she told me all this this past Jan, she hung on me after getting all her anger out on me, and I felt she was saying, Ok I am angry at you, now go deal with it.

So this time, I wrote my angry letter. I told her how she is such a selfish, self-absorbed person, to blame me for something I had and grew up with, and that I had nothing to apologize for. I gave her specific examples of all the times I tried to help her, give her money when she was down, give her a few gifts to help her out, be nice to her even after she made me angry, tried to always be nice to her and be psoitive with HER issues, and that she has taken advantage of others in her life, and because they have not treated her the way she likes, she uses that to say I am the one who made her feel guilty.
So I did write one very angry letter telling her this, how hurt I was all my life that she pretended to be my friend and care, that she strung me along and if she was so angry with me, she had no problem accepting MY help or MY gifts. And I hopoed she gets back ten-fold what she did to me.

Quite honestly, I rweally needed to get that anger out at her. It just didn't seem fair to me that she could blame me for her problems, but I just had to sit and take it. That was EXACTLY how my dad treated me. And now, thank god, I don't get all that stuffed depression anymore, I let myself get angry, and usually almost all the time, I let it motivate me to to good things like go back to college, start doing volunteer work, etc.. But this time, she needed to hear what HER 50% responsibility of the relationship was. Hell, I'll take 50% ownership of my issues and my faults, things I did wrong, but she's going to take the 50% responsibility too.

One day, I pray that this anger turns to comapssion for her, because god she needs it. I do my best and have no problems with anyone else but her. I really cared about her and tried to be her friend, but she's too selfish and unless things fit in HER schedule and works out right for HER, no body elses lives seems to matter. Just hers.

Thank god it is getting to be over because she is nothing but pain to me.


Anyway, thanks all for letting me share all that "stuff" with you all.

Be well - ken