blueglass

Since realizing that my mom, sister, and I are all Adult Daughters of Alcoholics, I've been wondering about another similarity we seem to have unwittingly shared, and I wonder if it's another thing that happens to ACoA or if we're just unlucky

When I first started having a social life in 1988, I found myself always in the company of a gang of weirdos - and I mean that in a good way! We all liked the same music, all (supposedly) liked each other, and hung out whenever possible.

Sometimes, we'd get together and during the course of a conversation, they would begin talking about something.. an experience they all shared while out one night or something of the like, and I'd be thinking "when did that happen?" It was then that I had my bubble burst. I thought that, since we went out six days a week, that we were always partying together. What I realized was that there were LOTS of times when they were going out without me in tow.

It hurt my feelings, mostly because I was the only one being excluded. There were times that we would all plan on going out, and then whoever was supposed to pick me up would just forget to do so. That inspired me to get my driver's license, and one night when they 'forgot' to pick me up, I drove myself to the destination. None of them even spoke to me for about 15 minutes. In later years, I chalked it up to making friends with the wrong people and moved on.

Now, I have considerably fewer friends, mostly because I want the people closest to me to be the kind of people I can trust on a deep level and those are hard to find. But I still find myself being excluded from things, at least that's how I feel. I saw one of my friends last night, and he wanted me to come over today so I said "call me." Around 4pm, after not getting a call, I called his house, and got the answering machine. This friend doesn't have a car, so I kinda feel like... he was shoring up plans with me just incase he needed a ride someplace. When he didn't need a ride, there was no need to call.

Here's the thing - my mom, and my sister, have the exact same kind of friends. My mom's very best friend of about 40 years will call her to make plans, and then just not show up or call. My sister's best friend does the same thing. I had been thinking that perhaps we just have bad luck in picking friends, but now I'm wondering if that's not something that ACoA just attract to them. The only thing our friends have in common is their friendships with us. I'm "best friends" with two gay men, and I have a childhood friend that I've considered my sister for the last 30 years.

I haven't said anything concrete to my friends about it (i.e. Not returning phone calls, ditching plans with no explanation, only seeming to call when they need something from me) because I know I'm an emotional mess, and I don't know if it's actually happening or if I'm stuck in some sort of persecution loop. I figure here is the best place to ask.. so......

Anyone have friendships like this? Is it another characteristic of ACoA to have friends like this? Is this just normal stuff and I'm blowing it out of proportion? I get really upset by the aforementioned actions of my friends, and whenever I say anything to them, I do it in a joking manner when I probably need to be serious but I don't even think they hear me anyway.

It might just be because I'm the kind of person who will be going to the grocery store, and think to myself "I should see if X needs anything while I'm out," and I'll call. I don't have any friends that considerate of me. I truly love them all, and I'm glad they're in my life, but I really hate walking around all the time feeling used or disregarded.

best

In life, we will run across many people we will call friends.
Over a life time of living, to find just one person you can truly call a best friend-a true friend, you are blessed. Some may find two people that they can truly call a friend. That is over a life time of living.
My best friend passed away about 10 years ago. I won't ever be able to replace him. He is unique and can't be replaced.
What I didn't realize till a short time ago, I have a best friend but I never looked at her as such. My wife is my best friend. My family is my best friends as well.
they put up with me and will do just about anything for me or with me.

I see many here at SR who would give of themself, just as a best friend would give.

Friends are around, we may not see them for who they are at the moment.

To find a friend, be a friend... I find that statement to be so true.

blueglass

I think that both best and elizabeth are right about the 'giving' aspect of ACoA. I also go 'above and beyond' for my friends, because if I can help someone out I do.

Things that I think are normal to do for people, others are floored by. For example, a girl who works at my gym mentioned one day how she never has time for lunch so she eats out of the snack machine. When I was finished working out one day, I stopped to pick up a salad, and I got one for her as well, and ran it back to her at work. She was just stunned. She gave me a hug and thanked me, and still talks about that to this day. She said she has friends who she's known for years who wouldn't do something like that for her, and we barely knew each other and I brought her lunch. I didn't think it was a big deal, it's just what I do.

So now I'm wondering if that isn't another thing that ACoA do - give of themselves whenever possible. In the big scheme of things, if the rest of the world were like that it would be a nicer place. I don't think anything is wrong with it either, I just like to make people smile when I can. My mom and my sister ARE my bestest friends (even though I just had a rant about mom in another thread *lol*), and they do for me like I do for them. I guess it just sometimes bothers me when others seem to not appreciate it - but I don't think they appreciate it because that kind of behaviour is rarely reciprocated from them.

I once said to one of my friends "One of these days I'll have a friend who treats me the way I treat them," and he got offended. Here's a good example of kicking the gift horse *lol*....

I took one of my friends out one night to a karaoke bar. I had been cooped up in the house and wanted to get out so we started making this a weekly adventure. He never had any money, and since it was me that wanted him to go, I took him with the understanding that the bar tab would be mine. As we were leaving the bar one night, on our way to get something to eat, his boyfriend called my cell phone. I just handed the phone to my friend without answering it because I knew he wasn't calling for me. When I shut the car off, because we arrived at our destination, I could hear my friend talking through the phone. I heard him ask where we were, and the friend I was out with said we were at a restaurant going to get some food. Then he says "Oh... you better bring me home some Pepsi," and my mouth flew open. He knew that this trip was being financed by me, and that his boyfriend had no money on him to get him anything so I was going to need to make that purchase. I felt like what he should have said is "Let me speak to ..." and asked me if I would buy him a soda, or perhaps "Ask... if she'll get me a Pepsi on the way home." But he demanded it, and while he may have been aiming that demand directly at his boyfriend, he knew the benefactor was me.

When they do little things like that, I feel like.... ok so what, I'm not doing enough for you already, ya need more?! Wears me out!

And you're right, Elizabeth, I do exactly what you do, and assess if my expectations were too high... I do that a lot. I'm the type of person who will run through 15 different scenarios before I even mention to anyone what's on my mind, just so I can be 98% sure I've thought things through completely *lol*

SerenitySoon

To be honest, I'm 34 years old and until very recently I've never had a close friend in my life. I was always a loner and just preferred to not be around people. As I got in my late twenties I started hanging out more, coming out of my shell and meeting people (other than my BF). Now, I'm an extremely social person, but on a very superficial level. I still have a hard time getting close to people, so I don't have any really close friends. I have been friends with someone over the past year, that I do have a really good friendship with so at least I know that I'm capable of feeling close to another person. I was really beginning to wonder if that was something I was capable of.

blueglass

That's a start, Serenity! I know what you mean, though. My first group of friends weren't really the type that I should have ever told any secrets to, and I think I knew that because I wasn't open with them about a lot of things. I was just reading "Perfect Daughters" by Robert J. Ackerman, and he was talking about the eight stages of development. The first is "Trust vs Mistrust" - he said we learn that in childhood. I learned pretty quickly that the only person I could count on was myself, hence my problem today with asking for help from others when I need it. I think the earlier the alcoholism was experienced, the more distorted those developmental stages became.

I'd comment more but I'm still very early on in the book. I put it down after a few pages, and then last night I couldn't stop reading, interesting stuff.

utopia

good topic.

i used to hang out with a crowd of party people but in hindsight, that joy that grants me wisdom, i see we were merely acquaintances. i am blessed to have a few close friends i feel i trust and cna share intimately with. yet i still would like more friends, for me more male friends because some time i feel at odds with all my loved ones. i still want so much to give all this love within me waiting to be delivered and receive love too. but in recovery ive learnt that peopl dont express their love the same way, i buy gifts, give hugs, encourage and listen, support and approach with gentleness and warmth. i wanted others to give me the same deep affectionate and considerate loving i gave. i used to feel unappreciated but in recovery ive learnt to "listen for i love you". when my mum is cooking me a meal shes saying i love you, when my sister plays a computer game with me shes saying i love you...whenever i get angry or feel let down i try to think of what would be something loving to do if i wanted to. it always makes me feel nourished.

trust is big. learning to trust again has been hard but its possible, i do believe that, if i didnt, i would never have anyone in my life again. im unhappy with my small social circle and lack of a love life at present but im accepting it. im taking chances when they arise and letting what will be. ultimatlly the best way for me to gain more friends is to continue working on myself gently and lovingly. i also think i have to be my own best friend and be best buddies with my higher power first. then that love can pour outwards and not need something in return from my fellow humans.

blueglass

Utopia... wow. Your posting just "clicked" in my head.

I was just talking to my mom a little bit ago, I can't even remember about what, but I said "I know you love me," and she said "yeah, right.." (my mom is about as sarcastic as they come.. next to moi ) I said "You bought me 'Charlie and the Chocolate Factory', I KNOW you love me, I don't care what your mouth says," and she gave me a hug.

I think my big thing is exactly what you said, I'd like to get love and acceptance and friendships in the quantity that I give it. I'm not saying that's the reason for the things I do, but it would bowl me over is my friends were as giving to me as I am to them. Yesterday, my friends called and invited me over to their house, and we were together for about 7 hours. Lots of hugs, laughter, hand holding, and "I love you's" and it was the best time I've had with them in a long time. Just that act of inviting me over and us all having fun made up for the day that I felt ignored.

Two years ago I made friends with a doctor. Long story of how that happened, but to summarize, we met at my gym, and I had no idea he was a M.D. until after we had been friends for almost a year. I admittedly had a crush on him, and since we got along so well I thought there was some potential there. I did my usual schtick.. I gave and gave and gave.. and he took and took and took. I designed some stationery for his office, and when he had picked the final design, I gave him the stationery on CD, instructions for the printing company, and a bill. He somehow made an executive decision to NOT pay me, and we aren't friends anymore. I think my biggest problem is that I'm always afraid of that happening, because the doctor wasn't the first time. My friends told me last night that I shouldn't ever let the bad behaviour of the recipient of my kindness change who I am inside, but it's hard in the face of evidence that you made a big mistake, and don't want to make it again.

So... how can you tell if you're being giving to someone who is a friend, and someone masquerading as one? I guess that's the hard part for me. I know that my three best friends are truly my friends... when the chips are down they will come to my rescue, but you shouldn't have to only recognize the true friends in times of crisis. Is there a way to weed out the people who are undeserving of your kindness?

Guess that's the rub, eh?

DesertEyes

Hey there blue,

That's not giving, that's bartering.

If I give with _any_ kind of expectation that I will get something in return then I will always be disapointed. The way it works for me is really simple. When I have an expectation of somebody else they can't read my mind to figure out what it is I am expecting. They're just going to act the way they always have. My expectation is not met, so I give more and _raise_ my expectation. That will go on for a long time until the other person catches on that my "giving" has strings attached or I get tired of not getting paid back.

If I give with _no_ expectation of getting back then I must find ways of giving that are rewarding of themselves. That way I am never disapointed, other people don't avoid for fear of getting tangled in my expectations, and I don't wear myself out waiting to get paid back.

Mike :-)

blueglass

Hi Desert

With the doctor, yes, that was bartering. I'm not speaking about him - I know what I did there, and why I did it. I mean in day to day life. I'm not talking about doing things to get something in return, I'm talking about weeding out the fakes.

In the group of people I used to party with in my youth, one of them I tried to remain 'friends' with - a female. This person is in and out of my life all the time, and it's always when she needs something. I like her, so if she needs anything from me, I try to do what I can. Until recently. I haven't spoken to her in two years, because I became tired of being used. I probably shouldn't have anything to do with any of those people from my past, but it's so easy to remember the fun and forget the really negative times.

I guess what it amounts to is that this is such an old habit... I don't know about the rest of you but I was just like this growing up also. Always giving, always helping, probably just because I wanted someone to like me. I know there's a part of me that could be a really nasty person, but I chose not to be. I just really wish that I was better at picking people to have in my life that appreciate the effort it takes not to unleash all this pent up anger onto anyone, and recognize that it's a big step for me to come out of my shell, when the world has proven to me so many times that I should stay in it.

DesertEyes

Heya blue :-)

People who appreciate you, pent up anger, coming out of a shell. All those subjects and more are covered in great detail in the Al-Anon book Blueprint for Progress

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/091...books&v=glance

It's a great workbook for putting _me_ in control of my "baggage", instead of the other way around.

Mike :-)

blueglass

Thanks! I am loving these books lately, learning so much. One more to add to the collection

mushroom

What attracted me initially to AH was how generous and giving he is, in contrast to the ex H who is a stingy bastard. Realized later that poor AH was just trying to buy people's love.

My friends? unsatisfactory. Might just be my standards are too high but I don't know. I think if I'm afraid to call someone just to chat, they're not a friend; ditto if they never call me, I always have to initiate. On the other hand anyone who helped me move out of AH's house must be a good friend indeed! I assume people don't want me bugging them. I'm told I come across as very aloof. I don't know how to be any other way. I take any little thing as a sign that my company is unwanted. Am I really more alone than anyone else, or am I just more painfully aware of how alone we all are, not having surrounded myself with constant noise and motion like most people have done?

With reflection I've noticed that when in high school the group I hung out with was the kids no one else wanted around - the geeky, the disabled, the nonwhite. As an adult my best friends, the ones who really undoubtedly are friends even by my standards, tend to be foreigners. Is it because I don't like the American style of friendship, or because I feel like an outsider too? or maybe I can feel normal with foreigners because they need things explained and translated.

Anyway. I am what I am and unlike most women I don't really mind being alone, in fact my women friends my age can be envious of my lack of obligations, especially with christmas coming up! Watch out what you ask for.

blueglass

Greetings mushroom!

My high school experience was weird. I was one of two black people in my graduating class. I never had a boyfriend. I never went to any of the parties that people had, although I'm fairly sure I was friends with them. So I don't know if people weren't inviting me intentionally, or I was just so easy to overlook that people thought they had indeed invited me.

I hung out with everyone. I'd either be in the alley smoking cigarettes at lunchtime or in the cafeteria with cheerleaders or geeks. Even today, I seem to be able to flow with whatever group I'm with at the time, and my two male friends are like that also.

Like you, I look for little signs, and I can see how that might not be the best thing for me to do. At this moment, I haven't talked to my two male friends in 3 days. Not a big deal in the big scheme of things, but I can take that and blow it out of proportion so bad that when I do talk to them, I'll have a chip on my shoulder. I'm trying to learn to slow down a bit, so I have time to think. I'm always running things through my mind as if I'm on some invisible countdown, and it's only when I tell myself to stop that I clearly see what I'm doing.

I really enjoy my alone time also. It gives me time to think and learn. My sister is the exact opposite.. she always has to have something going on. She'll call me on her mobile for no other reason than she's driving home from work and needs someone to talk to about nothing *lol*

Why do you think your expectations of your friends might be too high? I think mine might be because my expectations of myself have always been above and beyond. When I say "I don't ask for anything more from my friends than I'd ask from myself," and then I realize how hard I am on myself, I do try to relax. Like... if I'm going to the grocery store, I'll call a few people and see if they need anything. I don't get those kind of calls. It's a little thing to do, and the way my mind works, it's what a friend does. But the truth of the matter is that in this day and age, those little things blow other people's minds, because as a society, we've learned to not really take the time to care. Children of Alcoholics have, I think, a different outlook on the world because of what we've been through... sometimes it can be a blessing because of our sensitivity to the needs of others. Then again, that can also be a curse.

utopia

standards hey, hmm. im working the steps. how do i pick out the fakes from the real ones if i dont really know who i ammyself? in doing step 4 i am having a clearer concept of who the hell i am and what i want and how i am feeling. that allows me to follow interests and maybe even meet like-minded individuals. my best friendships have been a byproduct of something weve shared such as studying a course, recovery or a hobby/club group. traumatic events often make lifelong friendships or break them. im not always my "real" self. im still finding out who that is in its wondrous depth.

about the giving thing. im learning to give kindness and love with no expectation of return, unconditionally and not taking it for granted that others have the same level of awareness, sensitivity or ability to feel and nourish others that i do. im taken advantage of when i want for something outside of myself. im taken advantage of when i close my eyes heart and soul to the little quiet voice within known as inuition or instinct. im taken advantage of when i give all of myself, mould myself aroud another, hoping that they will fulfill the emptiness left by the emotional abandonment by my parent(s). im taken advantage of when i give as a child of another, rather than as a child of god. i try to not give with attached strings or hidden hopes but merely for the joy of giving, the altruistic flow of love from me to another. the love flows through me from my higher power so theres plenty to go around. it would be very nice to receive that gift from others and i have been blessed to receive in recovery and in life. how? that was up to god.

peace.

Suger

wow. good topic. lol! well where to begin? the short answer is always good: F*CK 'EM!!!

ok so maybe that was a little short.

i have a non-negotiable policy in my relationships. i want people to treat me the way i would treat them. period. end of story. i mean, its not that complex. example. if i make plans with someone and they do not honour their words to me, theyre out: why? i need people i can trust, who put me first, who honour their promises to me, who are there for me. if people are casual about the words theyuse then they arent good enough for fabulousness. thats it. if they cant honour their words over a casual get together or phonecall, then they sure arent going to be there for me when the chips are down. so who cares about people like that? dump em!!! you deserve better. if you take **** all ya get is ****. if you dont take **** ya get cherished. seems easy enough. i want quality relationships, not quantity.

Suger

why would you be "nasty"? is it nasty to be yourself? it sounds like you are trying to buy people to me. sorry jmo.

Suger

utopia,
very wise words. i agree 110%!!!

Suger

wow mushroom,
i always assume everyone wants to be my friend. i assume that everyone thinks im a great person. i assume everyone thinks im fun, funny, smart, nice, pretty, and thoughtful. everywhere i go i enjoy myself and meet great people who want to talk to me. i cant imagine how hard it must be to feel your company is not wanted. isnt that kind of negative?

daddysdaughter

I am dealing with a similar situation. In my childhood I did not live in the right district for the school I went to and my father's behavior was pretty unpredictable so I never had friends over. As a result, i was never really in the "in" crowd. Then I went to a middle school in this wrong district. Then for high school I went to a school far away from where I lived too, but I did make some small groups of friends and stuck with them until I moved to a small town where everyone knew one another long before I got there and I was again an outsider. It was always kind of wierd. I think that for a long time I felt inferior, like there was always something about my homelife that I should fix before having others over. I am really working on making more friends now and not worrying about whether I "qualify" to have friends. I am feeling much better about myself and I am finding that as I value myself more, I am much more outgoing and much more able to engage with others socially. I have also found that I can be pretty standoffish and a bit judgemental at times which isnt too helpful either. I think that over the years i was probably accidentally pushing away people that would have wanted to be my friend probably out of an unconscious fear of not being "good enough" because I would assume that others' homelives were much more "normal" than mine. Now, im at the point of "who cares, we're all people" I will try and make friends and if it doesnt work out....move on. I havent got a lot of really close friendships right now, but over time it will come. I am at the point of working on me right now. In order to make genuine friends I need to be ready to be a genuine friend.

BeginAgain

Friendships - what friendships? I certainly have a few people I consider friends but I don't talk to them very often and it seems I am always the one to make the call. I hear that they often get together and go places or do things and yet I don't seem to get the invitation. I've often wondered - what is it about me that makes them not want me around? I think I've been a good friend - so I'm not sure what the problem is. I don't dwell on it.

However it may sound my husband is my best friend - he is the first person who comes to mind when I think of going somewhere or doing something - or if I have a secret to share, a thought to share or a life question to ponder with a friend. But it does feel like something is missing sometimes. I've always been a little envious of people who have a "best pal" that they spend alot of time with and can say anything to. I haven't had that in a really long time.

As I sit here and ponder it - I do kind of get a feeling of emptiness. The last time I can remember having that kind of girlfriend to hang out with I was in my early 20's. I had a friend that I had been very close to through the last 2 years of highschool and after. She was so much fun - we had alot in common and spent hours being silly and giggling and just sharing our thoughts and dreams. When I was 23 she was killed in an accident and honestly I don't think I've met anyone since that I've felt the same kind of connection to.

As we age and grow our needs change where friendships are concerned - atleast in my opinion. I don't want or need the same thing I did then. But the fact still remains that I haven't found anyone who really fits that role in my life - I wish I had. Although my husband is my "best friend" I do have times when I feel sort of empty and lonely for someone to do things with and share things with outside of him. Like I said earlier - I don't dwell on it. But wouldn't it be nice?

I also seem to be the one who ends up doing most of the giving in friendships. I'm the listner and the one who provides advice - if someone does call it's usually because they just want my input or advice or help with something. I can't think of anyone right now that calls up just to see how I am. But part of the "giving" ties right in with ACOA traits - I'm certainly a bit codependent and fixing everyone else is much easier for me than asking for what I need out of the relationship. While I said earlier I don't have too many "close friends" I certainly do have quite a few that I sort of feel like a "mommy" to. It has served some purpose in my own life or I wouldn't continue to do it. Probably takes the focus off me and allows me to feel like I'm in control of something in my life - if I'm guiding and fixing your problems I don't have to look at my own.

I am going through a period in my life where I feel like I've intentionally shut down for a while. I'm not doing as much of that giving and fixing - I'm trying to spend some time with myself focusing on what I need to work on. There's plenty to do - LOL. I've got 37 years of baggage to unpack and sort.

Do you guys ever feel just totally overwhelmed with yourself? I've been feeling that way alot lately..like I wish I could run away from myself. There is so much in there to be analyzed and worked on it feels completely impossible. But I started therapy a few weeks ago and every time I leave there it seems like more and more is bubbling to the surface begging to be dealt with. Ahhhh..this would be where that "good friend" comes in....too bad I can't think of one person I'd feel comfortable burdening with my baggage.

Sometimes I think I'm hopelessly messed up for life!!!!