Centered3

Did I ever doubt my perceptions? All. The. Freaking. Time.

Since a very early age, I was taught that everything I felt, thought, said, observed, etc. was incorrect. I was also taught that what I felt, thought, said, observed, did not matter in the least to anyone. The only thing that mattered was what my alcoholic parents/family members felt, thought, said, observed, etc.

I used to scream as a child, and would get punished for it. But I know now I was just absolutely dying to be heard. I would get cut off very harshly anytime I tried to express myself. I had zero tools of how to express myself, or any permission whatsoever to express myself. I was not allowed to be an individual with my own thoughts, opinions, feelings, wishes. I had to validate my alcoholic parents' and family members' anger and resentments all the time, as a survival technique that I learned from an early age.

Doubting your perceptions....it's a very difficult concept/experience to explain, even to therapists...and I had one psychologist do a lot of damage, actually, but I've since found ones who helped me see this.

I used to try to explain it with this analogy: if I said that the sky was blue, my FOO would angrily scream that I was wrong and the crazy one, because any idiot knows that the sky is green. I would silently stare at the blue sky, cry, and just shut down because nothing made sense. It was all a big mind f*ck, excuse the french.

I had a very kind therapist validate me, but he kept telling me that I had to learn self-validation. I had another therapist tell me, "Centered, if I lined up people from one coast to the other and they all told you that "it's not you", you still wouldn't believe it. It has to come from within."

It's not an easy thing for those of us who experienced these sort of things. But it's absolutely key. Being taught to doubt one's perceptions from an early age is so damaging, but we CAN get past it. I am working very hard to try to trust myself, my instincts, etc. and to be able to speak up and ask for what I need. It's not easy--it always seems like there's more work to be done.

I'd be curious to hear other people's experiences on this.

Soberpotamus

Similar experiences of being invalidated caused me to not trust my FOO at all, and to only trust my own intuition, reasoning, and the knowledge I gathered from outside the family/home. If anything, it made me extremely insular and distrusting.

I believed they were all nuts. And I doubted my own sanity after I started struggling with anxiety and depression. I did get professional help right away for that, and I also majored in Psychology in school in an effort to try and understand, and make sense of people in general.

I still struggle with accepting that people are just mean a**holes at times. I want people to make sense. But sometimes they just don't. That's taken me a while to understand and accept.

misty2572

I'm not sure what an FOO is??

Centered3

Sorry, Misty, it's Family Of Origin.

Centered3

Thank you for sharing your experience, SP. Sounds like you and I reacted differently. I trusted my sick FOO instead of myself. I didn't trust my own intuition, reasoning or knowledge. I'd try to in therapy, but I'd always seem to revert backward to trusting my FOO--probably out of the guilt and "brainwashing".

It must've been so freeing for you to be able to say "they are all nuts". I was way too sucked into their sickness to be able to do that. I wish I could've thought and reacted more like you.

Yes I doubted my own sanity quite often. My anxiety and depression caused my FOO a lot of stress and I was made to feel badly about it, or that it was my fault, etc., for decades. I'm glad I got professional help but it was a hard onion to peel because of the guilt that I fed into. I was in major denial about my depression and anxiety. My mother tore into the psychologist when he met him, and the only words he said to her and my dad were, "Centered is depressed." I was made to feel like the worst child in the world. How dare I be depressed/anxious, when I have such a wonderful mother, and with all she does for me; was what I was told.

I should've majored in psychology like you did, to help make sense of it all, but my mother made sure I knew exactly what she thought of those who major in psychology, so that wasn't going to happen while living under her roof.

My therapist says "you can't make rational sense out of irrational people" and "you can't expect irrational people to act rationally." I love that. We have to lower our expectations for some people.

Soberpotamus

Well, it didn't feel exactly freeing to reach that conclusion. It made me feel shame. I was ashamed of being from that family. I wanted to get far away from them. And I must've felt secretly, deep down that I was part of them, forever attached. It's a deep source of shame for me, I think.

I was fortunate that my grandmother was naturally intelligent and encouraged me artistically and intellectually. My mom did to a certain point, but I had to dodge her insults and shaming regardless.

I got very mixed signals. My mom told me she loved me more than life itself, and yet she neglected me and shamed me at times. Life was chaotic.

I guess, at this point in my life, my goal is to open up to others and trust more. Or at least give people more of a chance.

Spacegoat

I'm the same. And I'm getting so much validation now from my therapist and others not so much about the past (I got that on here and I'm eternally grateful for it) but about who I am, my natural qualities.

I was, and sometimes still am, oblivious. I'm not perfect either but have learned in AA that's ok too, another message I hadn't heard before ("We are not saint's. We claim progress rather than perfection")

Have not seen my psychiatrist(s) recently, we had a brief but similar discussion to this. Basically I told him that I (exponentially) thought my perception of reality was the crazy, and we were in agreement.

I know now that my intuitions were rarely wrong, if ever… As painful and all as that realization was to begin with (and was always, right?) Hey thanks, this is a great topic Centered. We can heal from this.

Soberpotamus

Agreed. We can heal from it, and, yes, great topic. Thanks, Centered.

It's nice to open up and talk about things like this.

Centered3

Oh. I'm sorry it wasn't freeing for you. I understand, though. I felt a lot of shame, too, being part of that craziness. And I know I hurt my family because I think they sensed my shame, which made everything that much worse.

I think that's why I liked college so much, because I got to get away from my FOO but I was too crazy into my own facade by then to be true to myself and healthfully separate from a very sick, enmeshed family.

You are very fortunate to have had a healthy motivating role model in your life.

My sister was like this. It was/is extremely confusing. I didn't get mixed signals from my mother; I pretty much always knew what she thought of me from the get-go. I even sensed her guilt over it when she then would overdo stuff, like over-worrying about health things.

That's a good goal, SP. I have to do the same thing. My therapist says that when you're healthy, you start to attract healthy people, but I'm still waiting.

Centered3

Spacegoat, I'm glad you're getting validation from your therapist. That's what helped free me. The psychologist before did the exact opposite, and caused a lot of harm. The therapist that validated things for me was so wonderful because it allowed me to feel safe, cry, and release a lot. I still fall back into old ways of thinking, but at least I was able to rejoin AA with his help. I also found helpful validation on SR. :-)

I'd get judged a lot by people who I thought were my friends. Everyone misunderstood. Darn it, why hasn't the media addressed this?? It would help a lot. The only movie that comes close from what I know, is "Mommie Dearest".

I have lost many friendships--some longtime--trying to seek validation from them. It's so painful!!! I've tried to explain why I'm not close with my family, why I don't see them for holidays, etc. etc and then I get anxious and end up over-sharing and no one can understand what the situation really is. Not even my medical doctor (stupid of me to tell him, but he kept asking me if I'm undergoing a lot of "stress").

I find the less I'm in my head, the more I'm able to watch, pay attention, learn, etc. I'm far from perfect too, although I spent my life trying to be perfect. I like that quote from the big book, too. :-)

My psychiatrist doesn't get my family situation, either, but I'll always be grateful for how he treated me very respectfully and the help he gave me. He wasn't just one who doled out meds.

Hmm I haven't told anyone that my perception of reality was "crazy", but I do know from doing my 4th step that I certainly took a lot of things personal. Mind going into more detail here? I have, however, since kicked my family off the pedestal, where they don't belong, lol.

I'm trying to get better at trusting my intuitions, but sometimes it's still hard for me to tell if a thought is from my mind, or if a thought is from my intuition. Any suggestions?

I'm glad we're all in this together.

Centered3

I'm really happy you both said this. :-) It's helping me, too. It makes up for all the friends I lost along the way who thought I was just a bad, ungrateful daughter...

Soberpotamus

Most of my friends and acquaintances never understood it either. They would guilt trip me even more than I naturally felt, lol. Which was a lot, mind you, because my family always wanted me to 'come back home' to live in the craziness with them. After I went off to college, I only came back briefly once when my grandmother died. After I saw my grandfather was ok, I moved away to another city.

While my mother was in ICU, comatose after a drug overdose, a very dear friend just didn't get it about the dysfunctional family. It was making me sick and physically ill, not only to see her in that condition, but to have to be around visiting abusive family members ... he kept urging me to be there for them, lol. Just be there for THEM. As if... haha. As if I didn't need anything from them all those years ... instead, I should suck it and be there for THEM as my mom was leaving this world.

Soberpotamus

One dreaded topic of conversation that ALWAYS comes up happens around the holidays ... oh, Jennie, will you be going to visit family?

Uh. Where to begin? How to explain? No, I won't. "We aren't close." We just aren't a very close family. That's what I typically say. And then there are the looks. I see the look in their eyes that something's wrong with me and my family. And it's usually that I sense it's ME. I'm a terrible child, grandchild, cousin, and niece for 'deserting' my family. And my own family feels I deserted them, too.

So, pretty much the whole world around me thinks I deserted my lovely family.

I totally get it, Centered. I feel your pain. It's lonesome at times, isn't it?

Soberpotamus

This is very relatable as well. Only, in my case, it was me who figured out I had panic attacks, anxiety, and depression and I took myself to get professional help once I was 18-19 and in first and second year of college. My family would never have taken me. They were all in complete denial.

Even years later, I'd mention ... oh, hey, you know that time I was seeing the therapist for my panic attacks when I was living in X city? And there'd be these looks and this dumb silence, as if it never happened. I couldn't even engage them enough to recognize I was getting professional help. They wanted to look at me and deny there were any problems because that would incriminate them. It was themselves they wanted to protect. I could fend for myself, but dare I to bring up anything that might incriminate them, then they'd play dumb.

My husband told my grandfather recently about my jaw surgery. He and my father won't talk much about it because they somehow feel or believe that I'm insinuating or blaming them for not knowing I needed jaw surgery years ago. Or, at least, that's how they act. They pretend there's no problems, and they ignore and deny anything is being done about it. They completely ignore chunks of me and my life. They know me only in fragments.

I've been writing since I was a child. I have talked about my writing in the past and again ... total, dumb silence. No interest, no questions, nothing. I was 38 years old before my grandfather ever asked me how my writing was coming along. This was last year. And he only asked me this once. He's hooked up to an oxygen tank and about to die. I guess he thought maybe he'd acknowledge I write before he kicks the bucket.

My father and mother have never asked. Not once. Ever.

My Dad still asks me what I do for a living. For years I've been telling him that I write and blog for a living. He continues to ask me if I have a job. They seem to think it's a pretend career or that I'm making it up. It's very hurtful to be totally invalidated by family members who claim to care.

tomsteve

centered, the footwork you've been putting in lookin at yourself and living in the solution has been amazingly awesome to read. its very awesome to read you understand the answers lie within you and the world isn't going to change or validate you.
keep working THROUGH it!

Soberpotamus

Yeah, I can vouch for what TomSteve says is true ... the world is going to waste no time or effort to validate you.

It's full steam ahead. Plow ahead, and forget them all.

Spacegoat

It's absolutely key! It requires some deep introspection though, my life is busy at the moment (in a good way) and I find I don't have nearly as much time to spend on these topics as I'd like.

Do you guys get to meetings btw?

I don't actually, good question though. I have the same problem. Faith I guess? It's very difficult for us to trust, even in God. I had a discussion with my therapist about this yesterday.

"God can move mountains, but bring a shovel just in case" - I hear this in AA on occasion and I certainly relate! Great comments from you btw. We are on the correct path.

Not nearly as much since coming here I'm sure you agree. It's amazing to know that we are not alone. I always felt alone on this planet or misunderstood.

About the friends thing… It is unfortunate, sad even but I would have to go with Tom of 'Narcissism Survivor' (Youtube | I love that guy) advice…

People who don't understand, look at you funny, say but it's your mother etc… "Don't even bother with 'em. Forget 'em". I don't recall the exact video but unfortunately thats the truth of it, most people would not understand.

We can't do anything about that. Youtube counsellors (some experts) have been instrumental to me in understanding the dynamic. I'd long given up hope, I didn't think that this could be understood, I was going crazy it seemed.

In the past year or so I have studied this stuff in considerable detail online on the emotional, mental and spiritual levels respectively. To the point where I can now watch transpersonal video's about it for entertainment value, that's progress!

Getting late here guys, best be off. Gonna do the rounds on the forum first, hello-goodbye etc. Thank you both for replying to me in my thread, I had planned to respond earlier but it's a job for tomorrow, master procrastinator here! That's part of it too...


Nite guys x

Soberpotamus

'night Spacegoat

Centered3

Tomsteve,

I am so grateful for you and my other SR friends. Wow. You just got me out of the past. I have been stuck in morbid reflection. Thanks for catching that and for turning my thoughts to where they should be instead!!

!!!

Centered3

Spacegoat and Soberpotamus,

Tomsteve is right. What a great reminder to get me out of my head and self-pity, remorse, morbid reflection.

I do well when I live in the solution and when I remember that I do not need any human being's validation or understanding, because I am a child of God and that is good enough validation for me.

I made a commitment to trust God when I said my Step 3 prayer. I try every day to improve that trust. I am a work in progress. :-)

And I try to remind myself that no one's opinion matters but God's and I know He loves me unconditionally.

I even think I'm finally beginning to understand "Honor thy mother and father"--I can be present with them and be there for them, without reacting, as much or as little as I can be--but I know God is there to give me strength and help me bring love, kindness, patience, and tolerance....within reason. I am trying to deepen my understanding of this.

I do not want to be a victim anymore. Neither does God want me to think like that. :-)