granolaprincess

I've been having little aha moments lately about who I am and the decisions I've made. The most recent one is about choices made as an ACA. I'm seeing a pattern over the last 2 years that has just culminated in my first moment today of not feeling like I've been a complete fool by getting involved with an addict. I thought I was healthy and making healthy decisions and then I met my b.f. and I changed. I was happy where I was before we hooked up, life was going okay, I was becoming comfortable on my own (I'd been divorced for 3 years and had recently told a guy I was dating to take a hike when I found out he was an addict) and things were looking okay. My value was never wrapped in him until my mom died. I've wondered a few times if my b.f. is my addiction, the one thing I feel I can't live without, and in some ways it seems very true now. We've had chaos since day 1 and I think it was something familiar, even though I didn't realize until just now, so I was in my element. His mom and I are friends and she's mentioned how frenetic his house is and she's right. It feels like chaos even when there's nothing going on. I always felt on edge when we were living together and I think it's more than his drinking or pot smoking, it's about being in the chaos and having that be the only way I know how to live. That explains why I thought I couldn't breathe when he wasn't around, felt mopey, and even now when we talk I feel almost like I'm getting a fix. Wow, what a thing to realize, and it feels so liberating in a strange way.

Has anyone else had something similar happen and how did you deal with it?

JT

Princess,

While I was doing one of my 4th steps I started looking at my life in reverse. Well I wrote a life story and while I was doing that I was able to see my life in reverse. Another thing I did in another 4th step was look at all the relationships in my life. Mom, Dad, husband #1, my husband now, my son, boyfriends etc. and it was very eye opening too. The common denominator in all my relationships was and still is that I don't truly give myself up to them. Except for my son but that is to be expected I would think. Now that seems clearly not to be you but I would be willing to bet that if you sat down and did the same thing you would find out something about you and how you relate.

The life story showed me vividly that I had reacted my way through life when all along I thought I had been exercising my power to choose. That was pretty tough stuff to discover. Had I not entered Al Anon I know with certainty that I would have reacted my way out of my current marriage. That would have been my loss as time has shown me.

My only point here is that you are you and finding out who that is can be life changing. I have learned to accept peace vs. chaos over time. But I also have to be careful to not create chaos because that is my comfort zone. I have to be watchful to live outside my own personal box.

Hugs,
JT

Morning Glory

I went through this a couple of times. I remember feeling invisible when my boyfriend wasn't around. I couldn't see myself at all. I used boyfriends as mirrors. It was like being blind when they weren't around. I didn't know who I was. I was used to looking at myself negatively with my family growing up and used the same mirror when choosing relationships. As soon as I started seeing who I was and what was causing my problems I could live in my own skin. I stopped needing to see myself through other people.

I noticed something with my grand daughter one day. I said something negative about myself and she said the same thing about herself. I did a little experiment and told her I was beautiful. She said she was beautiful too.

Children look at their parents and loved ones as if looking in a mirror. The pattern is repeated when they move on in life. When we learn to use a different method of seeing ourselves we change the pattern. The more I accomplished the better I saw myself. The more I surrounded myself with people that liked me the better I saw myself. The more I got in touch with the root of my problems the better I saw myself. It was a process.

Hugs,
MG

DesertEyes

yeah I get those too :-) Feel like an idiot once I figure myself out, but really glad I do.

In my case it's not the _chaos_ that I need, it's the _power_ that I feel over controlling the chaos. Before I "came to" about this particluar wrinkle in me I was fascinated by the kind of lady that was the worst for me. Druggies and chaos attracted me, and I them. I used to believe it was the "familiarity" of living with an addict, and their chaotic lives. Now I realize that I get a huge sense of _power_ by being the organized one, the saner one (relatively speaking :-) A sense of power that I never had as a kid.

'course, there's also a huge adventure and adrenalin charge in living with an addict, so between the two, I was hopelessly lost.

For me it's definetly a "fix". A _power_ fix, a safety and security in being the one in control kind of a "fix". It is very addictive, and just as unhealthy for everybody involved cuz it is abusive of the addict to control them that way and it perpetuates the abuse done to us ACA's.

It was very difficult for me. Took me a long time to be able to separate the "infatuation with chaos" from true love. Basically, I had to go abstinent from women for a few years. Especially the ones that just "clicked" with me. Anytime a young lady and I started to give each other that "radar look" I had to consciously force myself to realize that I was just falling into "old patterns" of thinking. Then I had to teach myself something I should have learned as a kid, but never did; That "normal" ladies with healthy, productive lives were _better_ for me than chaotic addicts. (gee, you'da thunk I coulda figured that out on my own without a program, but nooooo.... )

Whadya think?

Mike :-)

chess

[QUOTE That "normal" ladies with healthy, productive lives were _better_ for me than chaotic addicts. (gee, you'da thunk I coulda figured that out on my own without a program, but nooooo.... )
QUOTE]

So since you've learned this please share how does one tell the difference Should I just conclude that if I'm attracted there's something unhealthy in the situation?

DesertEyes

Well, I don't know about you, I can only tell you what I know about me :-)

In my case it's not that there's something unhealthy in the _situation_. It's something unhealthy in _me_. What a relationship is _supposed_ to be is a two-way exchange of support, shelter and love. Each partner is supposed to make their best efforts to make the other partner's life better.

What I was doing was finding partners who I would not trust to provide me with support, shelter and love. I was not ready to accept the fact that I was lovable, was still mired in lousy self-esteem. My primary goal was to create a false front with which to cover up my lousy self-esteem, and what better way to make myself look good than to surround myself with people who were more screwed up than me.

When I looked in the mirror I was too scared to look at _me_, so instead I looked at my g/friend-of-the-week. She was pretty messed up, so I _had_ to be better than her. 'course, rigorous honesty is that my g/friend probably thought _I_ was more messed up than her ;-)

What I had to do was get my own "feces amalgamated" first. Found me a couple good shrinks over the years that did me a world of good. Worked the various 12 step programs I belong to. Hung out with people in the program that had the kind of life I wanted to have, and listened to their stories about how they got themselves to that point. I avoided the people that had the kind of life I was currently living.

Eventually I got to a place where I could look at myself and honestly say "I've come a long way, doing ok and heading in the right direction" Once I was able to show my true self without shame to anybody who cared to ask, I no longer needed any kind of "crutch" to bolster my self-esteem. Most days I feel just fine with who I am. (Some days I lose my serenity and go crawling back to a meeting :-)

Once _I_ became healthier in mind and spirit I was no longer attracted to losers of the kind that I was.

Now I am comfortable with people who need _nothing_ from me. They're perfectly capable of living life on their own. They have their "feces amalgamated" and don't need any kind of "rescuing" from me. I don't need rescuing either, and most of my "issues" are doing just fine. I started dating people who had a place to live, had a job, had a car that worked, were not on their way to jail, and who wanted to date me simply because they felt it was more fun to hang out with me than with somebody else.

One of those ladies I married :-) Twenty years later and we're doing mostly good. Not _always_ good. Not perfect. We sometimes have little misunderstandings and sometimes big ol' fights. But the overwhelming majority of the time we have a great relationship and we make each others life better simply by being here.

At the moment we've got several huge problems that life has dumped on us and we're doing our best to work thru them. Even if our marriage doesn't survive, the last twenty years have definetly been worth it. I know that if we split up it's going to hurt like )*)&(^ but in the long run we'll both come out stronger for it, and we'll both find somebody else the share the rest of our lives with.

Whadya think?

Mike :-)

granolaprincess

You know, half-jokingly I've told myself and others that I could spot the one with the most baggage in a full room just by how attracted I am to the guy. In fact, that I never felt like I needed my b.f. was one of the things that made me so happy. I found out later that he tended to be a rescuer, and maybe that's why he was at his finest when my family was falling apart after my mom died. Originally (I thought) we were coming together out of a sense of really liking each other and wanting to be together. I did not know that he was getting stoned and/or drunk regularly to deal with being ditched by a girl he was attracted to. We were becoming good friends and it wasn't until I realized I was really falling for him that I was told what was going on (we had been dating for about 3 months at this point). In fact, I found out from a co-worker when I was asked if I had any problems going out with him knowing what he was going through. I thought she was referring to his ex-girlfriend from years ago whose kid had just been very sick and in the hospital. I didn't have a clue! And I was looking! I looked for all the signs that I was then requiring: he had a job, could manage his money, had what seemed like a great relationship with his mom, liked kids, and had an open mind. Apparently I got what I asked for, but didn't ask for available, honest and sober. I thought when he told me he liked pot he meant it recreationally, lots of people don't like pot and it can be an issue. I said I didn't care because I didn't realize he not only liked pot but needed pot. His friends are all users/addicts and he doesn't even see it! He thinks they're cool and good people so they can treat him like a doormat. I, on the other hand, am judgmental and don't like his friends according to him and he hates this. How can I like someone when I can't find out anything about them since all they ever do is drink or get stoned?

Then there was the monogamy issue. He doesn't want to be "owned" or "controlled" and feels owned by being monogamous. He read this in a book called "Time Enough For Love" when he was 14 and it seems to be his equivalent of the bible. My realization last week on this was that it's not about monogamy, it's about commitment, and the lack of ability to do that. I thought it odd that we were making wedding plans but that he never actually asked. When I mentioned it he just looked at me and said that I should ask him. He does that with a lot of things. In fact, I was planning a proposal the day before he said he wanted space.

I hadn't thought about the power issue before, but I know that when all other things in one's life are falling apart we tend to grab what we can to control. I have always been the organized one, the one who runs the house, pays the bills, etc. I know that w/ my b.f. I was burned out on it and let it go, boy did I let it go. He doesn't like being the responsible one and I'm ultra-responsible, so it was a good fit for a while, at least until I decided to give up due to depression. Maybe it is a power thing, I will have to consider that one.

Desert eyes -- congrats on 20 years together! I hope you and your wife are able to work through life's troubles and come back together stronger than ever.

DesertEyes

<lol> Gee princess, back when I was drinking and using you would've spotted me in ten seconds flat ;-)

Perhaps you might want to consider that you have the correct list of "requirements", but in the wrong _order_. Maybe you should first check for "sober", and only if they pass that test move on to "honest", and so on.

I'm the super-responsible one over here, and wifey is on the medium-rare irresponsible side. Allmost all our big fights are over that issue. In our case, it's a really _bad_ fit to be on opposite ends. It would be much less stressful if were both on the same side of the fence.

Thank you, thank you. Your wishes are most appreciated. We'll be praying that things work out for you and that you catch a wonderful guy that meets all your requirements :-)

Mike :-)

chess

Thanks Mike

I think you're onto something here. Just this morning while walking to work I was thinking that I am lovable and realized that I used to think that I was not. Silly me

So it is something in me. I used to have that idea that someone should be with me 'cos they would love to hang out with me and I with them. My first boyfriend fit that category but after him it was all about rescuing.

Now that I have been working on my self and like me hopefully it's gonna be better. I know that the drinkers do not appeal to me anymore.

Thanks for sharing your story. It helped to see it in writing. And I hope things work out with your wife!

And granolaprincess I hope you find someone wonderful and good for you

DesertEyes

Isn't that a great feeling? :-) Congrats on working your program so well :-)

Sounds to me like it's _already_ better. If the drinkers don't appeal to you, then you won't appeal to them, which means that you're on the way up :-) Dunno where you go to meetings, but if you look at the "winners" at those places you can see that it _does_ get better. Much, much better. There's no "hopefully" about it, you can see it in their eyes and in their laughter.

No prob, thanx for listening, you helped me stay sober another day :-)

Mike :-)

utopia

hi,
i just came home feeling frustrated. i started a rlsp recently with this guy andi gave him a flower and all that but he didnt even keep it. i started feeling like sabotaging and the victim again thinking guilty thoughts for lusting others, thinking he just wants sex, to use me, thinking that he must be an alcoholic cos his father was and and and and adn..........

all over a flower!!! ha! so i thought! i never thought of the power thing and im v grateful u opened my eyes to that! fear comes back sometimes and mistrust, reading these posts brought back unconditional love instead of having expectations (which i promised iwould not have!ha!)

wanting it to be what i want it to be, him needing me, enraptured in me, me being his muse and salvation, thats what i crave in my soul but i know even deeper how unhealthy and controlfreak that is.

just like a meeting, i feel a breath of fresh sanity and god in my heart now, thanks and blessings
toby

granolaprincess

My big issue right now is not getting wrapped up in the self-esteem when b.f. doesn't answer his phone. I'm constantly telling myself that it's not about me and I'm hoping that it takes root soon. It must be getting a little bit into my brain because he and I spent some time together last weekend and when I saw his pipe I didn't get all twitterpated like I had in the past. I told myself it wasn't about me, took a breath, and was able to relax. It was a little harder when he bought his 2nd 6-pack that weekend, but I think I was able to work through it. At least I was able to go to sleep, and that generally doesn't happen when someone is drinking since I am used to being on guard, so to speak, in case something happens.

It's hard to feel lovable when the signals you've been given most of your life point the other direction. Not only am I having to deal with an addict b.f. and my self-esteem/co-dependency issues, I'm having to deal with having moved all of my unfinished business with my mom over to my b.f. Mom died last year and it opened a whole can of worms I thought had been put to rest. Today, I'm trying not to feel as though I've been abandoned or a victim. These things have nothing to do with my worth, but I'm trying to figure out what it means for me to love me. I walk with my dog, journal, email friends, and am trying to work on my new apartment and am trying to get back into college to finish my bachelor's as well as exercise. Some days are better than others and some moments are better than others.

This recovery thing is work, but I know it's worth it, so I keep on trying.

DesertEyes

You go, princess!

Sounds to me like you're making great progress :-)

Yup, you are definetly loving yourself. You are doing things that are _good_ for you, healthy, productive and that will make your life better and better one day at a time. Sounds to me like these actions are helping you feel better about yourself as a result of something _you_ did, instead of as a result somebody else did. That's definetly loving yourself.

Mike :-)

granolaprincess

Well, the b.f. left me an email tonight telling me the passion isn't there. We watched "You've Got Mail" a couple of weeks ago during one of our scheduled days together to work out issues, and the scene where Meg Ryan and her boyfriend are relieved that they don't love each other struck a cord with my b.f. and he finally told me. I had accused him recently of waiting for me to end things and he said that wasn't the case. I had just recently thought that it may be up to me to make the decision since he seemed to be waffling, but I wasn't ready yet to decide about it. I have been thinking about it a lot though. I feel like I've been kicked in the gut all over again, although this time it's not as much of a shock. I've been telling myself to be ready for this but it still feels like he**.

I don't feel like I love myself right now because I feel like I'm falling apart. I know these feelings will pass, but in the meantime I'm trying not to go to that part of me that is terrified of abandonment and rejection, and telling myself "it's not me" and hoping I'll be able to get back to sleep some time tonight.

Do you think that handling things by email is cowardly? I think it is in this case because I think my b.f. does this as a way of avoiding seeing or hearing the emotions in someone. Is this a way of disconnecting? Is it typical of an addict to relate this way? I don't like the pain.

granolaprincess

Yes, people can change. Tonight I decided that I was more important to me than anything else and I told him I wanted off this roller coaster. I'm numb and feel sick and telling myself this will pass. It feels better than wondering if he'll ever come out of his self-absorption and realize that there's more to life than being high.

I feel like I'm floating in space without a tether right now. It's time for me to love me and to quit looking for that answer in someone else. I'm bummed about what I've just written off, and at some point will probably be relieved about what I've written off. Right now I'm trying not to look at the future and what we had dreamed of together, because I don't want to get mired in the self-hate and wonder if I made the right decision.

Thoughts? Anyone else go through something similar?

DesertEyes

Hey princess, sorry to hear you're having such a rough time over there. My thoughts and prayers go out to you.

And yes, I go thru pretty much the same emotions. Wifey and I are having our "thing" over here. Some days are good. Some days are not. The resulting emotional mess in me can really suck. No, _really_ suck.

Those emotions make me forget what I've learned on the program. So I have to remind myself of all the little goofy sayings that go around and force myself to apply them.

One day at a time. Well, what can I do about the situation _now_. Usually not a darn thing. Especially if I'm awake at 3AM hurting from it, as you seem to be. What I _can_ do is take action to relieve my pain. For me that means writing it all down, just to get it out of my sytem. If it's not too late I'll call a friend on the program to see how _they_ are doing. (I know several folks who have a much harder life than mine, and work their program better than I do, so I call them to see what I can do to help _them_ with their challenges)

Let Go and let God. A lot of my turmoil comes from wanting to control the entire world. I realize now it's just an old reaction from my childhood. Back then I could control nothing, but as a child I did not understand that, so I tried to control everything that was hurtful to me anyway. Over time it became a habit and today, when things seem out of my control, all those old childhood fears come back. Therefore my turmoil comes from fear, and fear is the absence of faith. So I pray. Any prayer, doesn't matter which one. And then I just take all those things I can't control (like my wife :-) and toss it over to God and say "Fine, you made this mess, you fix it!"

Doesn't work as well as it sounds :-) But it does help me quite a bit. Might take me an hour or two but it does settle me down to where I can get my emotions back to stability. Sometimes I even manage to get some sleep :-)

After I've had at least one full night of good sleep, and a chance to talk it over with my buddies on the program, only then will I take the time to examine what _my_ part is in this whole mess, and what actions I can take to correct _my_ part. But only when I've had enough rest and no emotional insanity for a full day.

Whadya think?

Mike :-)

granolaprincess

Hey DesertEyes,

I hope you and the wife are working through your thing. That is always hard. I've been keeping your words in mind and trying to remember that controlling things is not the way to work though life. Funny thing, I've never been into control since so many people tried to do it to me, but I've realized that I do it in a much more subversive way -- I tell people the truth and then try to shove it in their face as if they'll change their ways once they see the proverbial light. Kinda scary, huh? Glad I didn't go into education! lol. No really, it's hard to realize that pushing, controlling, whatever you want to call it, is not the way to deal with people or issues.

I'm doing much better since last week. I've realized that I DO have a limit, and I reached that limit this weekend. Saw the b.f., thought we could work it out after all, and then he lied to me and completely dismissed me when I called him to see if he'd gotten sick from our lunch as I had. Since then I haven't had the urge to call, email or see him. I am still very sad, but now grieving for what I thought would be. I'm really glad the emotional insanity has given way to some peace - our house was so frenetic and I never felt any peace there. Now I feel some peace, no matter how short-lived at times, and I believe I may actually start sleeping again someday. Until then I am working daily on facing issues, embracing the lack of sleep instead of fighting it (that is SO hard to do at 3am though), and taking baby steps back into life. I'm working to not be mad at my mom for this legacy, but rather see it as her choices, and that now I have the choice to do things differently. I don't yet have the tools to do that, but I'm hoping that time and daily work will at least point me in the right direction.

Thoughts?

DesertEyes

Hey there Princess :-)

Thanks, your thoughts are most welcomed :-) We're each pedaling as hard as we can, I've got faith that we'll make it thru this mess. This morning she discovered that the latest course of steroids is making her hair fall out again. Steroids always do that to her, and it seriously depresses her, so she's been getting extra love and attention from me :-)

Glad you discovered that about yourself :-) You'd probably make a real good Boot Camp Instructor ;-) I'm the rescuer type of controller. I find people who "need" me to fix their lives and control them that way. Not really good for anybody in the long run.

Way cool! Congratulations on that. Doesn't it feel good to overcome one of our demons? :-)

You too, huh? I wake up at least twice every night. Just stress related, no other reason. Wander on to the kitchen, fix myself a warm cup of milk, maybe go pet the cats in the garage. If I can unwind a little and remember my program then I can go back to sleep for a few hours, else I'm up till morning.

Maybe I should just give it up and get a job as a night watchman. With my luck, I'd get hired and then start falling asleep on the job [lol]

I've been spending more time with newcomers and, in it's usual weird way, that helps me relax quite a bit. There's nothing that gets me out of "self" as much as getting a phone call in the middle of the night from somebody who's facing far greater challenges than I am, and is handling it all far better than I'm handling _my_ life.

You go, Girl!

From reading your posts I think you're doing purty durn good. You know where you hurt, you're willing to do what it takes to get well and you're commited to making yourself a better person for _you_, and not for somebody else. I definetly think you're going to get yourself where you want to go and do it right quick. :-)

Mike :-)

granolaprincess

Rock on Desert Eyes!

Sorry your wife is having probs with steroids. I took them for a short while and didn't like the effects. I was fortunate to find out it was a wheat/gluten intolerance and now that I'm completely gluten-free I don't seem to be having the health issues I had for lo those many years.

I've thought the same thing you have about getting a night job! I have often thought about going into work very early and then thought I'd probably fall asleep at my desk! Some nights are better than others in that I get some sleep, even if it's not much. Other nights I get little to no sleep and then nap when I get home. For now I'm trying to embrace it and not fight it, letting my body run it's own cycle. Not easy when you want to fall over at 10am and you're running reports at work! I'm not sure why I keep waking up, I think it's related to a stressful incident that happened about 10 years ago (thought someone was breaking into the house) since I wake up at almost exactly the same time every night. I do know that I sleep much less when I've seen the b.f., so decided it was in my best interest to stay away for now. It helps that he hasn't followed through with our plans of getting together and I haven't asked!

Yes, overcoming demons is a wonderful thing! Now if I can only remember these things before, or as, I'm getting into a relationship again.

Funny you would mention rescuer type controller. I had never thought of it that way. The guys I choose fit exactly into that category, and I don't want to be rescued (at least I don't think I do)! I actually scared my ex-husband one time when I told him I needed his help since I had never asked for it before. I had never heard him move so fast. It was eye opening when he mentioned that to me afterwards. So....I'm working on asking for help as well, and trying to figure out where the line is between asking for help and being needy.

You sound like you're working your program in an awesome fashion. I think you will be a good model for newbies. No one ever said this would be easy, and if they did they aren't really working it!

DesertEyes

thank you, thank you :-)

Well... I dunno.... lessee from reading your posts you've got relationship problems with a guy you are very much in love with, all kinds of self-discoveries from your childhood in a "toxic" family, the fear of your relationship falling apart...

Me thinks you got enough stress going on to keep you awake for a whole week :-)

That does sound like it might be a real good clue, whadya think? ;-)

[lol] I wouldn't think you do :-) The thing I came to realize about _me_ is that I was not interested in the real person I was dating. My attraction was taking place at a much more "subconscious" level. It had nothing to do with my g/friends, it had to do with how _I_ perceived them. Sometimes I would hook up with one who had her own "mis-perceptions" about me and it just so happened that our individual issues would mesh in all the right places and we'd be off to a wild and wonderful weekend. If it lasted that long.

Those were _not_ relationships. It was just two people dating each others fantasies.

What I had to learn to do was to stop _responding_ to these crazy girls who thought I was cool. I was _not_ cool. I was emotionally ill and needed a few more years of program before I was fit to be dating material. It was exactly that emotional illness that caused me to "mis-perceive" the crazy girls as if they were healthy.

Alcoholism is a disease of perception. It makes the alcoholic believe their own lies about themsevles as if they were true. It makes the "codie" believe their own lies about the people they fall in love with as if they were true. It makes the ACA belive _other people's_ lies about themselves as if they were true.

That's why a sponsor and a close group of friends is the only way to heal from this disease. You gotta have somebody who can look you in the face and tell you are full of BS, cuz you can't do it for yourself.

If I may suggest that there is _not_ a line. Being needy and asking for help are _not_ on the same page.

Asking for help is simply assesing the time and materials available for a given task and allocating the appropriate resources. Sometimes, the goal requires more than one person to do the job.

Being "needy" is a form of manipulating another person into a "rescuer relationship" in the hopes of avoiding emotional responsibility.

From what you've mentioned in your posts you seem to be the "over-responsible" one in your relationship (as I am in mine). In my case, the term "needy" brings up memories of my parents and their permanent drunkedness. I learned to be the adult in the family at an early age. Now it's just an old habit that's hard to shake. I associate "help" with "needy" as a result, even though in reality they are different things altogether. It's one of the lies I believe as a result of being an ACA, and one of the lies I'm working on correcting :-)

Thank you, that's a wonderful compliment. It's not actually supposed to work that way :-) I'm supposed to be an example of what happens if an alcoholic works the program the way I work mine. The point being that I'll be equally useful to the newbie as a bad example of how _not_ to work the program as I would be as a good example <lol>

Whadya think?

Mike :-)