In Vino Veritas?

Old 08-31-2015, 10:38 AM
  # 1 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 7
In Vino Veritas?

Do the drunks in our lives mean the hurtful things they say?

I mean, it's not like alcohol can just conjure a new person out of thin air. You can pour all the booze you want into a welder from Alabama named Joe, but he's never going to turn into a Jamaican shoe salesman named Bob. Joe is still Joe, however drunk he may be, and whatever he says or does, that's still Joe saying and doing it. There is no alien standing outside the window with a mind-control ray making Joe beat his wife and say horrible things to his kids. There's no ghost of some dead wife-beater that possesses him once the alcohol lowers his defenses. There's just Joe.

So it makes sense to me to think that, when my dad would get drunk and beat my mom, there wasn't some alternate personality to blame, that was just my dad being himself. That he always wanted to beat her up, he just didn't have the nerve unless he was drunk. When he would call me into the living room so he could sit me on the couch and tell me, at great length while he drooled on his shirt, everything he didn't like about me and all the ways my brother and I were disappointments to him (killing time until Mom got home from work and he got to use his fists), I can't get around the conclusion that he must have meant every word. Those words and thoughts had to come from somewhere, and unless alcohol has the power to conjure a brand new person out of thin air, complete with their own feelings and opinions that have nothing to do with the actual person who's been drinking, I just can't brush it all off as "the booze talking."

I believe in the old Roman saying, "in vino veritas" -- there is truth in wine, or "a drunken mind speaks a sober heart." Drunks mean what they say. Booze can't speak for itself, and doesn't have any feelings or opinions of its own. All it can do is loosen tongues and lower inhibitions. So if someone is mean when they're drunk, then they're a mean person, period. And if my dad said he hated us (my mom, my brother and me) when he was drunk, then by far the most likely explanation, to my mind, is that he really did hate us.

Am I wrong about this? I don't like the idea that my dad really felt the way toward us that he, y'know, repeatedly said he did when he was too liquored up to stop himself. Even if he acted nicer when he was sober. Even if he had the nerve to say "I love you" on his deathbed. I can't believe any kind thing he said sober, when I saw how easily the hate poured out of him when he was drunk and had no filter.
GenusUnknown is offline  
Old 08-31-2015, 10:48 AM
  # 2 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: east coast
Posts: 1,332
I am a recovering alcoholic myself and I agree with your beliefs. I know that my behavior drunk was always just below the surface. That is why merely quitting isn't enough. There is a whole lot of work involved once the booze are removed.

Abuse is a whole separate issue from alcoholism. I always say:

Liars lie
Cheaters cheat
Abusers abuse
Thieves steal

None of these have anything to do with alcoholism. Even if they are present in an alcoholic. They are separate issues that also need to be addressed but quitting drinking always has to be the first step
happybeingme is offline  
Old 08-31-2015, 12:48 PM
  # 3 (permalink)  
Member
 
CodeJob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Mmmmmm
Posts: 3,178
Hello Genus,

It is worth considering how much self-hate was he blame-shifting. Regarding the A in my life, I was mature enough to see that he was speaking and acting out of his own issues. I was often able to detach and think to myself, "Nope. That's just not me we are talking about here..."
CodeJob is offline  
Old 08-31-2015, 06:10 PM
  # 4 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Bullhead City, Arizona
Posts: 89
Genus:

I agree with what you said. Sometimes I try to "analyze" *why* my father and mother, and several girlfriends, were abusive to me. I'd try to rationalize some of their behavior... one of my sisters thinks that my mother may have been molested by a relative when young...

My psychologist calls it: "analysis paralysis," The "bottom line" [I'm an accountant... :-) ] according to my therapist is that they did the abuse. Period. My mother would occasionally threaten me with "worse than death" if I talked to anyone about what was going in our house... so, deep down inside, she knew it was wrong.

I'm attempting to focus on what I call "male & female mentors;" adults that were supportive and positive to me as a child and teenager. My father was a salesman and I could never believe anything he said: his actions told me all I needed to know about how he felt towards me. I know he never loved me, and over time, I have come to accept it, although at times it makes me sad.
MikeH is offline  
Old 08-31-2015, 06:58 PM
  # 5 (permalink)  
Member
 
Kialua's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,437
Agree. My dad was abusive, beat me mercilessly and then would cry and apologize saying how much he loved me. Yikes if that was love. My mom would say to him, "Not where is shows!" while beating me. Who is the real person? The real person is who is doing the abuse.

Reminds me of the movie "Primal Fear" This guy Aaron is a killer fakes pleading not guilty by reason of insanity split personality. His alter one is aggressive, named Roy, who did the killing. In the end he tauntingly says to his lawyer after being acquitted, "There never was a Roy."

There was no nice guy to my Dad. He was an abuser and a drunk.
Kialua is offline  
Old 09-01-2015, 03:26 AM
  # 6 (permalink)  
Member
 
tromboneliness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Back East
Posts: 704
Ya, there's a lot of truth in this, much as I hate to think of it that way. My Mom was very different when she was drunk -- she was always rebelling against whatever my Dad thought; if he said, "Black," she'd say "White" just to argue with him.

The weird thing is -- and this is going to surprise you guys, because even five years on, I still have a lot of anger issues toward my Dad -- when he was drunk, he was really nice to me, a lot of the time. When the two of us were alone and he was crocked, he used to get very sentimental and happy toward me. His incessant need to control... well, cessed during that time. He'd recall stories about good times, things I had done (usually involving either bowling tournaments or, in Little League I was a pitcher and struck out a lot of hitters -- not surprising for a bowler), and so on and so forth. That was not always the case -- if there were some specific thing he wanted me to do, that I didn't want to do, he'd be on about that even when drunk -- but there were a lot of times when he'd be happy and sentimental with me, when hammered.

A lot of my Dad's baddest side came out when he wasn't drunk at all -- when he was his brilliant-scientist-Superior-Form-of-Life self and wanted everyone to bend to his will. When drunk, he'd fight with my Mom (sometimes they'd go at it like Ali and Frazier, albeit only verbally), and he'd rage with us kids -- but when it was just me and him, he was often very different. Not sure I know what to make of that -- but thanks for prompting me to remember that side of him! Kind of messes up my whole "Dad was a raging alcoholic control freak, f890 him" narrative... but things are often not as black-and-white as they seem, are they....?

T
tromboneliness is offline  
Old 09-01-2015, 11:33 AM
  # 7 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 350
For me, I don't believe in the idea that alcohol brings out the truth that lies deep within, that we do what we truly want to do when drunk. I believe the opposite. Certainly for me.

In my personal experience, I did the opposite. I flirted with women I had no interest in whatsoever. I said things that made no sense whatsoever to myself the next day (because of blackouts, I would need to get reports sometimes). I would break my own moral rules left and right. And denial came sweeping in to explain away any and all of my behavior. My excessive judgment of others was often simply a reflection of how I felt about myself - a projection of my attitude about life in general. I was often confused about how I was feeling inside, but ALL-SO-CERTAIN about what was going on outside in the world around me.

With that being said, I was still responsible for everything that happened while drinking. If I said something inappropriate, then I'm responsible. If I did something inappropriate, then I'm responsible. I have the sober me to look at the drunk, thinking, damn it dude - I have to clean up your mess. But it's my mess. I work to accept that I am a human that makes mistakes.

This is how I view my alcoholic loved one that is still active. He is sick. Very sick. In his sickness, he says things that make no sense. They're ridiculous. They're abusive. Yes, it's true, that with sobriety, he may still cling to the same attitude - that drinking is not the only path to abusive behavior (lieing, cheating, stealing, etc). That a lack of drinking will not automatically heal our relationship - that even sobriety might not bring that about. He would likely change dramatically, and I might find myself missing the old dad. I don't know, because I haven't experienced it.

There was a time while I was away for school and my father was raising his grandkid. I returned to visit for a holiday and observed him as being completely different. A gentle, more relaxed, funnier kind of version of him. He had made an effort to stop drinking hard-liquor (no more scotch, but drank beer still) - I guess he was trying to change for the grandkid? Funny thing was several of my brothers complained that he was soft - or wimpy or was spoiling my niece. For me, I thought that the real father. the real person - the healthy version of him. Was coming out. Not fully - but definitely a significant change. However, due to my denial of his disease at that time, I said just about nothing about it. Pawned it off as him trying to be a granddad.

With that said, each human is different. Some people may not change at all when sober. You may experience the change and say, hmmm...still an a-hole. For others, you may like the sober version of your loved one much better. In my opinion, they're still the same person - it can simply be a dramatic change between the active alcoholic version and the sober version of them. For me, I love my changes and feel better about myself. Some people have told me how much easier it is to be around me. Other people, don't like the change - I'm not as easy to push around because I have boundaries now (my active alcoholic loved ones).

I definitely said some things I truly did not believe - that my purpose was to simply be mean. That I didn't know how to express anger - so I would blurt out something nasty to express it.

It is true that if you take away the booze, the person may continue to say the same thing. They meant it before, and they mean it after. There's also a case where the person is so sick that they are NOT saying what they mean. Instead of thinking about whether it's the booze talking or not, I just think to myself...that sometimes. Their nasty comments, aren't about me at all. It's about them. and I try to accept what is and leave them to their negative attitude.

My two cents.
thotful is offline  
Old 09-01-2015, 08:00 PM
  # 8 (permalink)  
Member
 
DesertEyes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Starting over all over again
Posts: 4,426
Originally Posted by GenusUnknown View Post
...Do the drunks in our lives mean the hurtful things they say? ... I just can't brush it all off as ...
Oh wow. I struggled with this exact issue for _so_ long.

See, I _wanted_ to "brush it off". If I could somehow, someway, figure out the "reason" behind my parents abusive behavior then I could find a way to convince them that they should change their behavior and I would have the nice, happy family that I always wanted.

Obsessing on whether they "meant" it or not is what kept me sane as a child. Believing that it was the booze that was evil and my parents is what allowed me to have an "escape" from the insanity. As an adult, however, it was no longer a useful "survival technique" and kept me stuck on Step 1.

What I believe today is that the "reason" why my parents did what they did is irrelevant in my life. It's not their motivation that caused me harm, it was their _actions_. Whether they meant it, or not, the result is still the same. Even if there _were_ an alien with a mind-control ray the result would still be the same: _I_ have to heal from the abuse.

( By the way, I'd never heard of the alien with the ray gun. I _like_ that analogy )

Originally Posted by GenusUnknown View Post
... I don't like the idea that my dad really felt the way toward us ...
Goodness, I can't imagine using such as soft word as "like" in that sentence. I felt _much_ stronger feelings about this, way stronger.

Originally Posted by GenusUnknown View Post
... Am I wrong about this?...
I think each one of us ACoA's has to answer that question for their own situation. As others have mentioned, alcoholism and abuse are two entirely independent things. In my case my father quit drinking and even went to AA for some years. Nothing else changed. After he died I found out that he'd had a second wife and second family, at the same time as he was married to my mother. He had this other family while he was drinking, and continued it after he quit drinking.

So in my "family of origin" the alcohol was not the reason why he was the kind of man he was. It was just an "accelerant", like pouring gasoline on a fire.

Mike
DesertEyes is offline  
Old 09-01-2015, 08:20 PM
  # 9 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Bullhead City, Arizona
Posts: 89
Originally Posted by DesertEyes View Post
What I believe today is that the "reason" why my parents did what they did is irrelevant in my life. It's not their motivation that caused me harm, it was their _actions_. Whether they meant it, or not, the result is still the same. Even if there _were_ an alien with a mind-control ray the result would still be the same: _I_ have to heal from the abuse.
Mike: Thank you for this. I need to get to where you are with this, but I have a long way to go.
MikeH is offline  
Old 09-01-2015, 09:01 PM
  # 10 (permalink)  
Member
 
GnikNus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Somewhere in California
Posts: 1,136
I don't think that alcohol unlocks someone's true feelings or thoughts. Alcohol heavily distorts and exaggerates feelings and emotions. Rationality is gone. People say or do things they would never do or say sober.
GnikNus is offline  
Old 09-02-2015, 07:09 AM
  # 11 (permalink)  
Member
 
bookmaven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 831
I believe that alcohol is a mind altering substance that changes and damages the brain, both physically and biochemically.

I am a recovering alcoholic. I did some outrageous stuff while under the influence. I made decisions that were dangerous. I made very poor choices. I told inappropriate people how awesome they were and I said horrible, abusive things to the people I love very much. I physically acted out by hitting, slapping, punching, kicking, pushing, and sometimes even biting people I cared about. I went home with strangers to keep the party going. All that mattered was staying high /drunk and I didn't even care about myself.

Does it matter that if I'd been in my right mind and not drunk (sick in the head) I never would have done those things?

Does it matter that I'm sober now and instead of saying something mean I keep it to myself? That I consciously choose to NOT say what I would have no filter for if I were drinking?

It isn't whether I meant what I said or not, but the fact that I didn't mean to say it at all. I was incapable of stopping myself from doing stupid sh!t. I take full responsibility for what I did or did not do while drinking. I'm not blaming the alcohol. I didn't have someone stick a gun to my head and force me to drink, even though I knew it was bad for me and caused all kinds of problems.

I never would have done those things if I were sober. That doesn't mean the thoughts didn't cross my mind, it means that while I was drunk I wasn't able to make good decisions.
bookmaven is offline  

Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:14 AM.