Extended Abuse

Old 06-30-2015, 12:56 PM
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Question Extended Abuse

Yo! It's a bit quiet in here recently and all around the forum (I must be in the bad books) but I am going to post this here anyway. There is a lot happening in my life that I need some help with.

I've been rambling on a little in another thead. It is what I do best, but there is an element to my rambling's that I would like to discuss and learn a bit about with you guy's here in more detail.

Said thread:http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ml#post5446176. Some of the posts are specific to insomnia, others are about what I am trying to figure out.

Basically, as I said in there, the person I am living with now is only 1 degree of separation from the lifetime of abuse and suffering I have endured. If even that. She shares many of the more subtle characteristics which were abusive for me and not surprisingly also, as she is my father's sister and agrees with him on most things. (both of my parents were abusive in their own ways and in quite extreme ways). She has also made a lot of excuse's for my father's more extreme behaviors over the years and basically has never recognized or accepted any of it as unnacaptable and serious abuse even though she could never or I presume wouldn't dare to argue that point with anyone. It's her own ignorance and refusal to accept this truth by virtue of the fact that she despises my mother. In other words, it doesn't matter to her what my father did to us, it was all my mothers fault in her opinion. While there is a correlation between their dysfunctional relationship and his extremely violent and abusive behavior towards us for example, neither one excuse's the other as it equates to serious forms of abuse against minors (their own kids) basically. I'm right about that much yes? Anyway, I don't have all the answer's it is just a question. Is what I am living with here now today an extended form of the abuse? It's very similar to some of it in ways. Nowhere near as extreme, but I believe mostly because of the mega fuss that has surrounded all of our familial stuff. (restraining orders, barring orders, arrests, bloodbaths etc where she was my fathers advocate in all of it and tried to mediate for him and on his behalf). Certainly it is no great distance from all of the said abuse, I do know that much. Thanks.

Disclaimer: My parents were not alcoholics in any commonly understood sense of the word. They drank a lot when I was younger and there were problems. I believe they made a conscious decision to drink rarely when we moved back here (my mother was wanted for questioning in the UK at that time for larceny and probably fraud also, again I was involved). On the occasions they did drink there were heated and mysterious arguments, and also a number of crazy incidents. E.g my father threw a vase at our tv once after a night out for them, another time he ripped every door of its hinges in the house. But I wasn't directly involved in those incidents nor was I the target. So, whateverest. Most of the time when they drank it was as good as life got with them. http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...rcissists.html
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Old 06-30-2015, 02:21 PM
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So this is your Aunt and she is defending your father? Well that makes sense. Some foo never see what their siblings are doing and won't believe even when they see it. Lost cause in my opinion.
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Old 06-30-2015, 02:47 PM
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Yep thats her. Well thats the thing, I showed her some of the Narcissitic Abuse stuff as it pertains to my father. And while she agree'd with it all, then her higher ignorance came into play and she said stuff like 'well, thats in the past, no point in dwelling on it'. The point I was making was that it's not in the past, and this is what she herself should be looking out for. Then I believe she runs back to him anyway with all the gossip and I can imagine them both sitting there discussing how they can effectively control me and my kids in future circa their own interest's and about my problems that they caused as if they are the victims. F'n weirdo's man.

I don't even think they are aware they are doing it. I've heard it said before that she is just as abusive as my father but in an a more subtle way. From living here the past while I know this to be true. She is a controller and an authoritarian, it's all she knows. She pretends to be nice and I've always felt bad for her being a spinster. Sometimes she is generous but only in order to impose conditions and so on. I'm reluctant to call her a 'Narcisstic Abuser' as I know now thats what my parents are, but really she is not so different. Thats the crux of my question basically, is she the same as them but for she hides it well? It's really looking like that to me.
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Old 07-01-2015, 10:04 AM
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Some foo are forever in their own world. I have several siblings that have different views of me being beat up daily. So be it. I live my life and don't have to be in their world. You will find your own world too now that you are on this journey.
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Old 07-01-2015, 08:09 PM
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I would run from that woman.....she is not your friend.......she's the enemies friend. My brothers discount whatever I say regarding childhood abuse......infact they participated in this abuse and I've called them out on it........anyway I call it gaslighting......so I simply don't talk to them anymore cause their behavior and opinions **** me off. For some reason I think you feel you need to be validated by her......screw that.....validate yourself.
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Old 07-01-2015, 08:46 PM
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Thanks Kialua, it's a different world alright. She is gaslighting me by times that's no exaggeration. I don't have a deep emotional connection to her so it doesn't affect me much, I'm like whatever. I definitely do not need any validation of any sort from her, far from it. Or anyone else really at this stage, not validation anyway. I could use some proper help and guidance in my life for once. I have been seriously at a disadvantage without any of that.

Run where is the problem? I don't have anywhere to go, if I start running I better not stop. Aside from that where the rest of them have ripped me off or have always tried to F' me up in some way she is my family, which is at least something we have in common. But its the only thing. I'm crashing at her place and she can only gaslight and manipulate so much, because she has to go to work every day. So I'm making the best of a bad situation here. I just stay in bed at the weekends so I don't have to deal with it any of it for the most part. It's far from ideal I'l say that.
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Old 07-01-2015, 09:55 PM
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I am always perplexed when people stay in abusive situations. I got kicked out of home at 18 (thank God) and I couch surfed for a couple weeks till I found enough roommates and got a little bit better job. I scratched and clawed my way to make it on my own, there was no way I was going to go home ever again or go to a relative who defended my parents or turned a blind eye.
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Old 07-02-2015, 08:31 AM
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It sounds pretty abusive right? I mean, if you read some of the posts in my other thread which I've linked it aint even subtle man. I don't feed into it at all in fact all my energy here is spent trying not to. It just stops short of violence on her side seemingly. I bottle it all up until I eventually drink and have a major mental blackout, its what I have always done. She has also landed the father on top of me at times over the years when I told her not to and not just here but at my own places of residence. The rest of them are in hiding, e.g. my brother who has kids- he will not let her or the father know where he is living and probably moved house again because they did know (as I have done a few times).

Wait til I tell ya. Sure I left at home at 17 also and was scraping about for a couple of years. Living with friends and students, working part time jobs and whatever else I could find and also trying hard to fit in and enjoy myself . Prior to that I ran away from home when I was about 13, me and another lad. There was supposed to be a few more of us but they chickened out (it wasn't my idea btw). We left notes as well, we didn't get very far but when I got back I was expecting that maybe things would change or someone would ask me what was going on with me at least. Neither of those happened, my mother in fact seemed a bit bemused or amsused even by the drama. So for the next few years, technically I was living there but I would be anywhere else where possible. Out on the street all day or around with whoever, off drinking somewhere and out until the small hours every night. I used to saunter into the school whenever I felt like it, the father was working away and the mother wasn't bothered unless the school were on her case. She would give me half a box of cigarettes (increasing to a box) going to school on days I had no money. I thought it was good at the time but looking back it was crazy, willfully giving me cigarettes every day from age 12? I didn't pressure her for that, certainly not at the start.

So I left at 17, I moved away and was scraping about for a couple of years as I said. No contact. Anyway, I ended up back there when I was 19 for whatever reason (no money I guess) for a few months and it was hell as they were both there all day every day then. So I got a job in a banking center in the next town over and was dependent on my father for lifts to and fro for bit (pure hell) until an older lad from school coaxed me to move in with him, a complete lunatic but I had my own bedroom and somewhere to practice my music although he used to let half the town into the house. No contact again, and this was supposed to be my way out. Saving money, paying into a pension etc, chasing the dream or the carrot should I say. I was going steady with a girl la la la, and after much deliberation and meditation in my mind I made a decision that unfortunately even though my mother rang me every few months looking for gossip that I could not have a relationship with either of them. It all started to go pearshaped again when my girlfriend insisted on meeting my parents, and after the kid was born she used to insist on us going there occasionally. Now her and the kid do still and its all out of my control seemingly. I don't know how I can put a stop to that but it's important.

Whats my point? My point Kilaua is I hear what you are saying. The problem is I'm not 17 now I'm in my 30's with 2 kids. My entire adolescence was spent exactly as you described there. Sleeping here there and everywhere, or just not sleeping at all and keeping the flame going with drink and drugs. It wasn't a party believe me. Any fun that I had was a distinct bonus, met loads of sound people but I just didn't want to be at home because to me there was no such thing (and still isn't). I spent my entire youth sleeping anywhere I could. Couches or in the corner of a room at a party (best cases), sheds, public toilets under a bridge or a freeway you name. Boats! They were good, bit of comfort in it although very cold. I've woke up in some very strange places let me tell you, and not just the copshop (although that happened a lot too). Worst case I would sneak back into the house in the small hours every night (if I wasn't in another town) and if the door was locked and I had to knock then that was a bummer. The point I am trying to make is that I can't, or really don't want to go back to doing the exact same thing at 33 that I was doing at 13. I just don't have the F'n energy anymore. I done it all then and it wasn't pleasant. F' doing the exact same all over now again, wtf. I dunno what to do man.
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Old 07-02-2015, 09:39 PM
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I worked hard, got roommates that didn't party. I quit drinking at 18, and believe me I drank loads before that. I got a grant and went to school, got married got a good career and never looked back and live the straight and narrow was faithful to my husband and a good mother. One thing I learned real quick was that drinking and partying did not work for me, and I couldn't do moderation. I forgave my crazy parents (kicking and screaming ;-) ) and saw them when I could but never got back on the crazy train with them. I lost all real contact with my siblings and extended family and that has served me well, no regrets. Didn't want anything from anyone but myself.

This is your journey and you will find it when you want it. Keep reading and working the program till it's yours. You can do it.
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Old 07-03-2015, 12:55 AM
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Perhaps I should consider myself lucky - The people that have either been emotional abusive, enabling or giving silent approval (through non-action or accepting the behavior), or some combination of both. well, none of them live with me. Constantly being in my face would not be an interest to me. When I turned 18, I moved out of my parents house and never looked back. I'm estranged from two siblings and am NO CONTACT. My mother tries to get me to feel guilty about it - along with a couple other siblings. If I had to live with them..woof...it would be very difficult to have my own space. Even if I have boundaries doesn't mean people have to respect them. That's what living on my own, ignoring a phone call, e-mail, or whatever gives me a little more control over their contact with my life. I'm able to set a comfy distance. I call my mother less nowadays because of her controlling and judgmental behavior. I love her to tears, but I'm treading lightly to avoid the risk of seeking out her approval. I need to approve my own life. I feel like many of my FOO members are like the "naysayers" in the stands at my basketball game. While I play, my supportive friends cheer me on, and gasp when I'm hurt, and cheer when I get up again. They cheer when I make a 3 point. etc. These foo members, they're different. They're that annoying person at the game who constantly dogs on their team. And people look at them and say, "umm, are you sure that's 'your' team - sounds like you want them to lose" - -- "boo!", "hey, stop being a dummy", "why did u put that loser in?", "oh, what are you trying to 3-point now" - NITPICK, NITPICK. Annoying! So, I just don't want them on my sidelines anymore. They're constant nitpicks and bickering...well, it never helps. Ever.
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Old 07-03-2015, 09:56 AM
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Thanks for the support. Did you kick and scream at them before of after you forgave, Kialua? Lol. Look I have no problem with forgiveness, I just keep doing it and end up in the same position only with another generation involved in the mix now it is far more complicated than it ever was before. These people are sick, really F'n sick and they make me ill too. Well it sounds like we each had almost the exact same plan anyway.

Mine has failed miserably, I got sucked backed into the black hole of misery slowly but surely. Now my entire life is compromised by these assholes. If I didn't have the kid around it would be simple, I would just drift round and follow wherever there may be happiness. I was going to going the Hare Krishna's at one point. But I'm still fighting the good fight, and I stand alone for the most part. Nice to hear ye escaped the misery guys.

Indeed, everything they ever say or done has been an effort to keep me down. Just for their own sick gratification. Even the aunty here does it accept I try n to to let it effect me. Throwing out things that are designed to hurt like she threw 'my addictions' in my face at the weekend again. I was committed to the row (I'd had enough) so I returned to the sender i.e. where's my addictions? The only addict here is you, addicted to food.
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Old 07-04-2015, 07:09 PM
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It sounds stressful.....I hope you find your way and with it peace. Thanks for posting this stratman......I see a lot of similarities between all of us commenting here....and it's giving me peace.....I struggled to go no contact w my brothers....I felt like I was weak to do that.....that I wouldn't stand there and fight them any longer.... Like I lost. It's not true. I am responsible for myself and my happiness and no ones allowed to interfer w my life. If they don't support me....they must go.
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Old 07-07-2015, 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Stratman1 View Post
Yep thats her. Well thats the thing, I showed her some of the Narcissitic Abuse stuff as it pertains to my father. And while she agree'd with it all, then her higher ignorance came into play and she said stuff like 'well, thats in the past, no point in dwelling on it'. The point I was making was that it's not in the past, and this is what she herself should be looking out for. Then I believe she runs back to him anyway with all the gossip and I can imagine them both sitting there discussing how they can effectively control me and my kids in future circa their own interest's and about my problems that they caused as if they are the victims. F'n weirdo's man.

I don't even think they are aware they are doing it. I've heard it said before that she is just as abusive as my father but in an a more subtle way. From living here the past while I know this to be true. She is a controller and an authoritarian, it's all she knows. She pretends to be nice and I've always felt bad for her being a spinster. Sometimes she is generous but only in order to impose conditions and so on. I'm reluctant to call her a 'Narcisstic Abuser' as I know now thats what my parents are, but really she is not so different. Thats the crux of my question basically, is she the same as them but for she hides it well? It's really looking like that to me.
Two sides of the same coin - two different reactions to the same source problem is my view.

For example, one could exhibit overt controlling behaviour such as blaming anger and threats or covert controlling behaviour such as caretaking and niceness (or at least apparent niceness - fake and phoney kindness).

Both are controlling behaviours, both are unhealthy, both can come from erroneous self limiting beliefs that underpin codependents which is learned from living with dysfunction.

Take it easy
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Old 07-07-2015, 02:49 PM
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I can relate to a lot of what is being said in this thread. "Foo" can be a rather encompassing group, and there are a number of common "themes" that run throughout the various threads here in this "sub-forum..." Just from this thread...

Originally Posted by Kialua View Post
Some foo are forever in their own world.
Originally Posted by Debbie329 View Post
My brothers discount whatever I say regarding childhood abuse...
Originally Posted by Stratman1 View Post
thats in the past, no point in dwelling on it'
I've had all of this said or suggested to me, but, the reality is, that none of these attitudes do me any good when I'm trying to fix myself. My therapist's comment was: "You're probably further along in your knowledge of yourself than your eight siblings are."

So, Stratman, I'd say what my therapist said, to you re: your foo... "You are much further along than the rest of your foo." The only person you can change is yourself, so, if you must live with your aunt, you need to try to figure out how to put some space between you and her. And, as Kialua said, you are on a journey. Journeys take a while. Mine started, very subtlety and slowly, about 25 years ago, then really ramped up 10 years ago. You are in this for the long haul...so hang in there! :-)
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Old 07-07-2015, 02:55 PM
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It is stressful, Debbie. And what you said I am in agreement. I need to take a leaf out of your book for once and for all. Good to hear that you are doing well.

Makomago thanks for that. We are in agreement and it has been against my wishes that I am even having to study this stuff in real time, once again. However this time I am sober, and I am learning fast. It's both of those here now indeed. Her primary MO is the covert controlling behavior (although it is plainly obvious now) and when I choose not to interact which has become my stance (i.e. no thanks I don't want anything from you) it quickly switches to the other. It's just festering away here in one form or another. It's a really warped situation or me but I'm glad to be finally getting a handle on this stuff. I know there must be underlying reasons as you have indicated above however I don't think that any of them are going to change, and I need to try and save myself first and foremost. They can all have at each other and it's only right. I would like to maybe understand some of those reasons in more detail someday, but not while I am still in the thick of it as now and then. I have to accept that they have no desire to change. I have tried everything bar submitting my will to them, and that is all they want seemingly. I have been bitten a million times over already and here I am still running the gauntlet. I must have had a lot more faith over the years than I could have known.

I need to GTFO of these situations and learn the skills to not end up compromised by them again. I've been eager to hear about this referral but so far I have heard nothing. By the way, I made a comment in haste earlier (nothing new) about not needing any validation from anyone. For the most part it's true, however I was thinking about this referall after I got it as to what is the point of it for me. Validation from those people would not go amiss at all. I presume they are not going to gaslight me as well, because that would be bad. Aside from that, and it is my most immediate dilemma here and now with the court coming up and it's this: I cannot bring any kids into this situation even though it is where I am living. I have known this subconsciously from the start, I have a kid in another country and I timed a visit from them at a time she was on holidays. They wanted to visit and it was the only viable way for me though I didn't know why. When she got back then and found out she was angry, and insisted that I was meant to ask her permission and must do so in future! (for my kid and ex to visit while she was away). I'm pretty sure that my next blackout afterwards was centered around that situation, I will spare you the details. This is no fun, it is a stressful old life. Cheers hey.


(edit) Mike I just seen your comment and thank you. I appreciate it and you are correct. What does 'foo' abbreviate for guys I have been trying to figure out?
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Old 07-07-2015, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Debbie329 View Post
I would run from that woman.....she is not your friend.......she's the enemies friend. My brothers discount whatever I say regarding childhood abuse......infact they participated in this abuse and I've called them out on it........anyway I call it gaslighting......so I simply don't talk to them anymore cause their behavior and opinions **** me off.
For some reason I think you feel you need to be validated by her......screw that.....validate yourself.
My thoughts, except you said it much more politely than I was thinking!

don't give her any of your energy... take care of you. some things are best left behind us.
hugs
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Old 07-07-2015, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by chicory View Post
My thoughts, except you said it much more politely than I was thinking!
+1

Stratman: I think foo means "family of origin.."
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Old 07-08-2015, 07:22 AM
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Cheers guys
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Old 07-13-2015, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Stratman1 View Post
Makomago thanks for that.
You are more than welcome :-)

Originally Posted by Stratman1 View Post
I know there must be underlying reasons as you have indicated above however I don't think that any of them are going to change, and I need to try and save myself first and foremost.
Absolutely! I have found when I look after myself first and foremost all is well with me.

As for the underlying reasons... just for the avoidance of doubt I'm not suggesting that you need to understand theirs, just that if your Dad displays symptoms e.g. alcoholism (which has causes) it's very likely that your Aunt will display symptoms e.g. controlling/codie (which are likely to be the same causes).

Dysfunction is not (ordinarily) passed onto one sibling and not the other it’s a family disease and it's generational. Everyone is affected.

My point; well….. at the start of the thread you said “thats the crux of my question basically, is she the same as them but for she hides it well?” so my short answer is Yes she is likely to be the same because they had the same upbringing.

I can't remember the source of this (I'll try and find it later), but at either end of the spectrum one could exhibit narcissit traits or at the other end caretaking traits in response to the same underlying causes and conditions but the "caretakers often move into overtly controlling methods such as anger when their caretaking des not gain them the love and appreciation they want".

Either way... "both is an attempt to get love and approval from the outside because of an inability to generate it from the inside or put simply more simply codependent".

"All forms of overt and covert control come from a false belief that Iwe can control how others behave and feel about us and that others are responsible for our feelings or we are responsible for theirs"

btw: I know the source is Margaret Paul P.h.D but I can't find the exact source of the quote!

Take it easy…
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