seasaw

Ugh, my brain is spinning out!

My narcissistic AM always had this black and white, with me or against me attitude about people in her life. People were saints or sinners. If someone crossed her, they were OUT - and she expected everyone else to cut ties with them, too. That was my model and I am trying to outgrow it.

I have a few best friends, friends who have crossed into friends for life territory, friendships that have been tested by time and patience and communication and growth etc. One is D. D and I havae lived together twice, she's an expert when it comes to nvc, we butt heads on some things but we're sisters on Facebook, so you know, it's serious. We both have AMs, and consider each other chosen family. BUT I just got off the phone with her and I'm so upset I'm shaking.

We've all had good friends come and go, and some times it's just a falling out but no real damage has been done... not so three years ago, with another good friend, T. Sad story - I ended my friendship with T after he started a new relationship that led to drugs and, within 10 days, stole my car twice (busting a headlight, never fixed), accidentally poisoned my dog twice (first accident? ok humans make mistakes, second accident? negligence and almost killed my baby, and both times cost $600 and $1000 respectively not that that's what even mattered), and finally he physically harassed and intimidated me twice, preventing me from leaving the room once, and then threatening me with his body and got so close to me our noses were touching and I couldn't move around him and I had to physically defend myself; it was just a seriously scary thing - this was happening WHILE my dog was seizing on the floor behind me overdosing on the edible drugs she'd gotten into the second time that he'd left on the floor where she could get to them. Sigh. That's the short version. Ugh I hate even thinking about it. Amazing how a person can change in a few weeks once they start dating a drug dealer!!!! Needless to say I kicked him out of my house and blocked him on my phone etc.

Anyway, D, my BFF of seven years, and T had met a few times before T went off the rails on a crazy train, and had gotten along; they lived in different states but I guess had friended each other on Facebook (amazing how technology has changed our interactions...) This was three years ago. D, of course, being my BFF, knew everything that was happening - she loved my dog like her own baby, she was the one I'd call with the 'omg you won't believe what just happened' vents, etc.

Trying to shorten the story... I just found out that T not only is living in the same state as D, but the same town; that D not only knew, but helped hook him up with a place, and when she found out SHE got in touch with HIM to hang out, and they 'had a really nice time!' She has a bit of a reputation among our friend group of being neutral to an extreme, so this isn't uncharacteristic exactly - but, like, how much is too much? Am I crazy for thinking she should not gone out of her way to hang out with someone who had physically harassed me/almost killed my dog, or is she crazy for thinking that going out of her way to hang out with that person wouldn't have any repercussions on our friendship? This is making me totally doubt myself - I feel like EITHER I am terrible at choosing friends, or that I have serious issues regarding loyalty and friendship that make me a BAD friend.

I just don't even know what to say or how to feel. On the one hand, I know I am prone to following in my mom's neurotic footsteps (I've done a lot of 'i'm not friends with X any more so I will be hurt if you stay friends with them' in my youth), and I want to sort that out; on the other hand, how bad would a person have to F up for my best friend to be like, 'well I'm not going to go out of my way to hang out with that person!'

When I said I was surprised that she had done that, she was like, 'well I guess I wasn't really thinking about all that stuff... I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings.' And I said I just needed to get off the phone.

Thank you for reading all this. I feel INCREDIBLY wounded. Can you help me understand why I am feeling this way?? It's not like D is hard up for friends, she has tons! It's not like T and I just had a falling out - he physically harassed me! I just don't get it.

Thank you so much. I am so upset I am shaking. D is supposed to come into town to visit in less than a week and I am super stressed.

seasaw

I've been journaling this whole time and I think this might all be summed up as 'is it ok to feel my feelings?'

thotful

It's definitely interesting for me to think about.

I have a close friend who has a really strong relationship with my estranged siblings.

I don't know how much he has heard about the things that have been said about me and my wife. Does he know they call her "crazy"? Is he on the bandwagon with that?

I feel for you in trying to figure out what you want in your relationship and trying to "let live" or to not try and control the other person's behavior.

I was just talking to an Al-Anon member about similar stuff. I was saying that I felt disappointed that I didn't feel like my friend was there for me. Did/Does he stand up for me when my siblings call my wife names? Does he back me up when they try to trash my choices. This Al-anon member asked if I was trying to control my friend's behavior. Or...did I feel like I needed my worth to be validated by this close friend (I complained about his lack of support for my sobriety, etc).

I have some things to think about given the very helpful suggestions.

My close friend did at one point say, "I will have a relationship with your parents and siblings even if you don't like it" - and I thought, "waaaa..t" Since when did I EVER say my close friend could not have a relationship with them. I never did. I only asked him to respect my choice to not be around two of my brothers. Plus, I didn't want to hear about them. It is very likely he is deciding how thotful is feeling based on what someone else said. well, it's just all confusing. I have no clue where that came from.

I feel for ya.

seasaw

Thanks for that thotful.

I just wanted to come back and say I have CALMED DOWN. heh. I realized that D reaching out to T in a casual way to hang out just really triggered my memories of feeling invalidated and rejected a few years ago when my support network at the time really dropped the ball in terms of advocating for me/holding him accountable for his behavior. So when I heard that she'd done that I slid back into that emotional mode of feeling inadequate and doubting my own perception of reality. And that felt really crappy! I wrote her and basically said it was my issue that needed attention and that I'd need some time to think about it.

So it only took like five hours but I feel a lot more calm. I still am not sure about how to go forward with D... but I can take all the time I need. I just repeated to myself a lot 'I am entitled to my feelings.' Sigh. Basic stuff.

Kialua

Stay safe emotionally. That's my guideline. I won't get involved with crazy makers anymore. They can find "help" somewhere else. I have a couple friends that are in contact with an evil crazy maker and I steadfastly refuse to participate at all with that person. But it's like they get sucked into the storm because they want to see if any good will happen this time. I say this person can find their good without me. I don't care to be involved in any manner whatsoever.

seasaw

Amen to that, kialua!! And have people in your life who want that, too! I just don't even want to be bothered with this crap any more.

I'll have to take a step back from that friendship, because whatever her motivation was to contact him in the first place just doesn't make any sense to me. Everything she knows about him is bad news. So... I guess I'm just sorry she isn't making better choices, and I have made a big shift in my expectations of her/how I see our friendship. It's sad, but the best course.

Kialua

That's how I think too. It's sad that my friends still care about this creep and want to continue giving chances and think they should drag me in to it by even telling me about it. I have made it clear that I won't have anything to do with this person at all. I guess they value that person more than me, so be it. What is it about the creeps that get people wanting to forever give them a second chance and get sucked in time and again? Sheesh.

ajarlson

Interesting, I can relate. My BFF is still going to the church where the priest and his wife were very unwelcoming to me and my kids. Sent me pretty mean emails and were quite mean to my sweet (then)16 year old. I stopped going there, but she lives out of town now and comes back to go there for Easter every year and is still very chummy with them. I try not to feel betrayed but I can't help thinking, if someone was mean to her I would not still be friends with them. I know it's not in the same category as yours but I can relate the feeling of being betrayed. And I, too, wonder, is this normal? Do "normal" people maintain friendships with people that have "been mean" (for lack of a better phrase) to their best friends?

Stung

Oh, I can relate to this. My BFF is casual friends with a psycho girl who used to be very close with me until we had a very dramatic falling out. It REALLY peeved me at first, I also tend to veer in the "I love them or hate them, so you better follow suit" mindset, especially regarding friends. She brought up the psycho a few weeks ago in text messages and I just wished well for the psycho. I hope the psycho is happy and I hope she's in therapy. If my BFF wants to befriend cray people, that is her prerogative and it doesn't lessen our friendship, however I might make it subtly known that I don't really want to hear about this girl anymore if she's brought up again in conversation. That's my experience anyway.

Kialua

So true about being black and white and that extends into who I want to be around. I too feel betrayed when my close friends chose to stay in contact with an evil doer. And this person is a proven evil doer. But this person has cried great crocodile tears, while still being evil, and they rush to this persons side because "this time" it might be real. Yeah right. Even if it is real this time, I am out of it. Good luck and see ya, without me. In fact I hope this person can stop being evil. So I guess I do see more black and white when it comes to people. But who wouldn't after being beat for 18 years and blamed for being an alcoholic by my Dad. All the while when sobered up he cried sorry right and left and made promises to never do it again. I guess that had an imprint on me to not trust what people say but trust what people do.

But people that never lived through that just don't get it. Thanks to all you here that do get it.

seasaw

Ding ding ding!! That's the $60,000 question. What's 'normal'? Well forget 'normal' right, we don't need to compare and judge ourselves or drive ourselves bonkers doing the same for others - let's go for what the closest we can get to 'healthy' is, what feels, as kialua put it, emotionally safe.

To clarify, I'm trying to avoid 'black-and-white' thinking and referring to anyone as 'evil' or as my mom would say 'saint or sinner'. People are complicated, driven by all kinds of things - my mom would play at compassion when it pleased her and then once a 'sinner' would sin against HER, well it was a whole different story!

Like the morally dubious T, in my story above - he's not an EVIL DOER worshipper of the black arts; but, he definitely allowed himself to sink to the level of Criminally Immature, behaved dangerous and disrespectful ways, and I would never trust again - and BECAUSE OF THAT, i really freakin' wonder at D's motivation to want to shoot the sh*t with him. Like... really? Nothing better to do with your time?

What's interesting is that, pre-lightbulb, pre-recovery, her choice would have made me feel differently about myself: I would have felt rejected, inadequate, and invalidated, and so I would probably would have either a) stifled my feelings or b) have handled it in much the way my mom would have - storming at D, 'how could you hang do this to me' etc, making her feel how i felt. But instead, with much navel-gazing and forum-posting, , I find myself reforming my opinion of her, because she made a choice that is puzzling and says way more about her than it does about me.

I mean I realize I'm analyzing the HELL out of the situation but I think it's a good teaching moment for me, so to speak In real life, I sent her a text a few days ago saying 'Have fun during [this thing that's happening]; I look forward to talking to you in May!' and she never wrote back -chilly. I think she's prickly because my request for taking time to think things over implies that she might have done something 'wrong'. Uh well, yeah. It's a bummer. Chosen family is hard to come by.

Kialua

Ugh, now I have a birthday party for a friend that will the creep there. I could just be "busy" but I haven't seen this friends' sister in 30 years and I really want to see her. Her sister doesn't like the creep either, but is inviting them because her sister is so close to the creep. In fact the reason I haven't seen this lady in 30 years, (the bd girls' sister) is because of a falling out over the creep, when I used to still be under the creeps' spell and she wasn't. So this will be interesting if nothing else. And I had another friend today that I lost it on when she kept at it. ugh. People. They just don't get it.

seasaw

:/// ugh. i live for the day when everyone just feels ok about inviting the people they actually want to their own gd birthday parties, without taking responsibility for other peoples feelings about it. 'here, have a cupcake, you can see your friend later, pat pat pat.'

can you connect with the sister at another interval? maybe Facebook her and say 'hey, want to meet for coffee when you're on your way to that party? i'd like to catch up with you!'

Kialua

Dicey. Have tried that and no go. So I am surprised I was invited to her home. I guess I will just go and be nice. I can stuff my feelings with the best of them, LOL