My wife in denial
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 3
My wife in denial
My wife and I have been married 3 years now and they may very well be our last year. She is 33 years old and to this day she freely speaks of her mother being an abusive alcoholic since she was 6yrs old at the time of her father's death. My wife and her mother became reclusive until my wife went to highschool but they spent 10 years together with almost no social or family connections, her mother spending every night drinking until she collapsed.
I'm reading "Loving an Adult Child of an Alcoholic" which has been VERY insightful for except for the fact that it opens by congratulating me and my wife for taking this step together. Unfortunately, that's not the case. You see, my wife falls into the performer category of ACOA best. In public, among friends, at work, social networking, and when I first met and started dating her she seems to have a very type A personality. She's happiest as the center of attention, she turns strangers into friends with ease, and she's at her best in a spotlight. Then she comes home and falls into depression and crippled with insecurity.
Today my mother in law is still an alcoholic though now remarried to an enabler who is swiftly dying of cancer and would rather fix her a drink and make her happy than to have confrontation in his last days. Otherwise, she is still a recluse who has almost run out of friends and family to chase away. My wife, the people pleaser and type A, congratulates herself for being so well adjusted, "not because of but in spite of" her mother. Needless to say my attempts to as her to read any AOCA literature has been met with hostility.
After a couple of miscarriages and some calm/quiet years in our relationship after 4 years with 3 relocations, new jobs, buying a house and getting married things have been quiet. My wife doesn't know how to deal with the quiet and she has finally decided that her insecurity and stress at home is caused by me. She emotionally checked out of our marriage about a year ago, around the last time we had sex, and has been trying to convince me we need to separate since Christmas.
We don't know how to discuss, and we don't know how to fight. I don't trust that I can tell her how I feel so I say nothing or message manage with failure. She doesn't trust my intent. Her instinctive reaction to me asking anything of her is to say no. She compounds and confuses even the most simple disagreements so we stop talking about "when you say you're going to do X, please do X" into how I approached her about it, or I don't always do what I say I'll do, I never thing I'm wrong, I'm judging her, etc. If she finally has a moment where she stops defending herself aggressively, she crashes into a state of "I can never do anything right". My friends' kids go through this exact behavior.
I'm finally starting to hit my end point where I know that communication is futile. That she's never understand that I never want her to feel hurt, guilty, alone, condemned, or condescended but I know she is hard wired this way. It's not the core of our problems but it's not allowing us to move through our problems. She is incapable of mutuality above all else.
How do I get my wife, who is built to show the world how well adjusted and normal she is to be even the slightest open minded/humble to identify that she has a very unique language and process for dealing with me, and we need some sort of translation?
I'm reading "Loving an Adult Child of an Alcoholic" which has been VERY insightful for except for the fact that it opens by congratulating me and my wife for taking this step together. Unfortunately, that's not the case. You see, my wife falls into the performer category of ACOA best. In public, among friends, at work, social networking, and when I first met and started dating her she seems to have a very type A personality. She's happiest as the center of attention, she turns strangers into friends with ease, and she's at her best in a spotlight. Then she comes home and falls into depression and crippled with insecurity.
Today my mother in law is still an alcoholic though now remarried to an enabler who is swiftly dying of cancer and would rather fix her a drink and make her happy than to have confrontation in his last days. Otherwise, she is still a recluse who has almost run out of friends and family to chase away. My wife, the people pleaser and type A, congratulates herself for being so well adjusted, "not because of but in spite of" her mother. Needless to say my attempts to as her to read any AOCA literature has been met with hostility.
After a couple of miscarriages and some calm/quiet years in our relationship after 4 years with 3 relocations, new jobs, buying a house and getting married things have been quiet. My wife doesn't know how to deal with the quiet and she has finally decided that her insecurity and stress at home is caused by me. She emotionally checked out of our marriage about a year ago, around the last time we had sex, and has been trying to convince me we need to separate since Christmas.
We don't know how to discuss, and we don't know how to fight. I don't trust that I can tell her how I feel so I say nothing or message manage with failure. She doesn't trust my intent. Her instinctive reaction to me asking anything of her is to say no. She compounds and confuses even the most simple disagreements so we stop talking about "when you say you're going to do X, please do X" into how I approached her about it, or I don't always do what I say I'll do, I never thing I'm wrong, I'm judging her, etc. If she finally has a moment where she stops defending herself aggressively, she crashes into a state of "I can never do anything right". My friends' kids go through this exact behavior.
I'm finally starting to hit my end point where I know that communication is futile. That she's never understand that I never want her to feel hurt, guilty, alone, condemned, or condescended but I know she is hard wired this way. It's not the core of our problems but it's not allowing us to move through our problems. She is incapable of mutuality above all else.
How do I get my wife, who is built to show the world how well adjusted and normal she is to be even the slightest open minded/humble to identify that she has a very unique language and process for dealing with me, and we need some sort of translation?
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,423
I'm an ACOA too, and I think for me I had to see I had a problem before anything changed. My spouse tried to tell me, but I didn't hear him for many years and then became an alcoholic myself.
Finally I had to deal with a bundle of crisis--caregiving an alcoholic mother who did basically what your wife's mother did--retired, shut the door, and continued drinking and smoking herself in and out of hospital etc. until she died, my own drinking problem getting worse, financial worries, and a spouse who was angry and drinking himself more and more since I was not engaging the emotions / problems. This all forced me nearly to mental collapse, and my ACOA walls shattered, and I got some therapy and finally began to work through the crap I brought out of my dysfunctional home. Just like your wife, nearly nobody around me at work etc. had any idea that I was having problems. We are good at performing under intense pressure for long periods.
The point of this is if your wife is anything like me, something will have to propel her to crisis enough to recognize she has problems. Otherwise she will keep up the front and keep those ugly feelings buried deeply. Her hostility to you may (I'm not a shrink but I remember my own hostility well) be coming from your attempt to bring this stuff to light to save your marriage which triggers a powerful defensiveness to protect "what's ours" in terms of being made wrong by another.
Our alcoholic parents made us wrong all the time to keep themselves right--they were unfair and cheated emotionally and we had to take it so we are really really touchy about working things out as it usually led to us being blamed and punished.
I don't know what you need to do, but if you have had enough, perhaps the threat of you leaving may wake her up to the fact that you both need joint counseling to work on this since one on one most likely will not be possible until she has moved past some triggers. Just a guess.
It took years and me quitting drinking all together but my husband and I have moved past my defensive posturing for the most part--certainly about most of the big issues--and it took a lot of work and rewiring on both our parts. He had gotten used to the way we interacted and had to change too. So you will also have plenty to "fix" if you decide to do it.
I wish you both luck and send you a hug. It isn't easy, and I really wasn't wanting to hurt my husband, but was myself hurting terribly under my facade of performance.
Finally I had to deal with a bundle of crisis--caregiving an alcoholic mother who did basically what your wife's mother did--retired, shut the door, and continued drinking and smoking herself in and out of hospital etc. until she died, my own drinking problem getting worse, financial worries, and a spouse who was angry and drinking himself more and more since I was not engaging the emotions / problems. This all forced me nearly to mental collapse, and my ACOA walls shattered, and I got some therapy and finally began to work through the crap I brought out of my dysfunctional home. Just like your wife, nearly nobody around me at work etc. had any idea that I was having problems. We are good at performing under intense pressure for long periods.
The point of this is if your wife is anything like me, something will have to propel her to crisis enough to recognize she has problems. Otherwise she will keep up the front and keep those ugly feelings buried deeply. Her hostility to you may (I'm not a shrink but I remember my own hostility well) be coming from your attempt to bring this stuff to light to save your marriage which triggers a powerful defensiveness to protect "what's ours" in terms of being made wrong by another.
Our alcoholic parents made us wrong all the time to keep themselves right--they were unfair and cheated emotionally and we had to take it so we are really really touchy about working things out as it usually led to us being blamed and punished.
I don't know what you need to do, but if you have had enough, perhaps the threat of you leaving may wake her up to the fact that you both need joint counseling to work on this since one on one most likely will not be possible until she has moved past some triggers. Just a guess.
It took years and me quitting drinking all together but my husband and I have moved past my defensive posturing for the most part--certainly about most of the big issues--and it took a lot of work and rewiring on both our parts. He had gotten used to the way we interacted and had to change too. So you will also have plenty to "fix" if you decide to do it.
I wish you both luck and send you a hug. It isn't easy, and I really wasn't wanting to hurt my husband, but was myself hurting terribly under my facade of performance.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 3
Thank you, Hawkeye13. That gives me hope. My strength has been damaged lately so I'm focusing on me for a moment. We have started marriage counselling and she has started some independently as well. I am so glad to hear you and your husband are connected again.
hopping for freedom
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 847
"Our alcoholic parents made us wrong all the time to keep themselves right--they were unfair and cheated emotionally and we had to take it"
I had to trust that I was right and defend myself because my mom and step dad would have me believe that I was not remembering things correctly or that I was looking at situations negatively, or I had caused situations. Right... an 8 year old child causes a man to drink and beat her mother and then causes her mother to turn around and blame her and slap her. I couldn't trust their opinion to save my life. Only once did my mom ever admit that it was bad and she was sorry.
Sometimes my bf says I don't try hard enough to see his side of things or that I have it so good with him and I don't even know it. In some ways I do and in others I think he really does have an elevated opinion of what a great bf he is. He's going to make me crazy if he keeps saying I am not trying hard enough when I try way harder than he does. But honestly, I can't really tell. I guess I was wired to protect myself and my frail instincts. My default is to think he is wrong and wants me to overlook obvious problems and blame me instead.
In general our relationship is as good and we really love each other, but only when we have real friend to friend talks now and then and let a bit of what the other person is saying sink in.
I had to trust that I was right and defend myself because my mom and step dad would have me believe that I was not remembering things correctly or that I was looking at situations negatively, or I had caused situations. Right... an 8 year old child causes a man to drink and beat her mother and then causes her mother to turn around and blame her and slap her. I couldn't trust their opinion to save my life. Only once did my mom ever admit that it was bad and she was sorry.
Sometimes my bf says I don't try hard enough to see his side of things or that I have it so good with him and I don't even know it. In some ways I do and in others I think he really does have an elevated opinion of what a great bf he is. He's going to make me crazy if he keeps saying I am not trying hard enough when I try way harder than he does. But honestly, I can't really tell. I guess I was wired to protect myself and my frail instincts. My default is to think he is wrong and wants me to overlook obvious problems and blame me instead.
In general our relationship is as good and we really love each other, but only when we have real friend to friend talks now and then and let a bit of what the other person is saying sink in.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 3
Wackybunny, since reading "Loving and Adult Child of an Alcoholic" I've had the clouds sort of part for me. For 6 years I questioned my intention and was frustrated with seemingly never having the right thing to say. I've been on eggshells and I haven't trusted my wife with truth (she often tells me she wishes I lied when I tell her things I don't think are too hard to hear).
Here's a scenario as fresh as Tuesday. My wife has bronchitis and a fever. I wake up, make her breakfast and tea, give her medicine and bring her to the doctor. I wait with her, then drive her to get meds. I'm offering the whole time to make more tea, run a bath, take care of things she has to do, etc. She's checking work email on her phone and I tell her she should to put an out of office message in and leave it alone, they can cover for a day and she should rest. She says she has to go in to work tomorrow and I tell her she should take some time with antibiotics.
She tells me that bronchitis isn't contagious. I tell her I never knew that. she looks it up on her phone and says, she's wrong it IS contagious. Now, all day and the day before she is coughing badly and seldom covering when she does. My reply is, "Ah, that said maybe you should cover your mouth when you cough."
We're home on the couch at this point after a long morning of running around and me taking care of her. We've actually had a very nice morning despite her being sick. But, I should have know what that comment was going to do. Her reply, "If you're going to treat me like **** you can go somewhere else, then you don't have to worry about it."
I said, "I'm just asking..."
She says "yeah with a ****** tone!"
so I went up to my office and left her alone for the afternoon until we ended up together again and she's acted like it never happened.
This is normal in our home, in our marriage. Unreasonable to me, and inappropriate. For 6 years I wondered what I did to antagonize her so much, why she was so angry with me. And so I fought back in that conversations, I pleaded, I made statements like, "I'm not trying to insult you" which always fanned the flames. I'd say, "why do you only hear the negative and the worst possible scenario?" and she's rationalize it and says because I play the martyr. So I'd walk away feeling like I do harm, and unsure of my own motives until I finally just disconnected myself emotionally. I stopped telling her how I feel, I stopped having conversations with her that might lead to parity, I stopped asking her what she thought without putting my own defenses up. Instead of confronting her with the tiniest thing (can you take that stuff upstairs on your way?) where she would blow up, I just let it all build up and make me angry and resentful that I can't communicate with someone who expects the worst from me.
Eventually my resentment started me having that "****** tone" and "the look" I give her probably WAS rooted in anger. Our sex life was over early because fuses were lit all the time. It was a self fulfilling prophesy.
Yesterday morning, I understood it wasn't me. For the first time in a LONG time I was secure in the fact that I did right by her and my ask of her was totally reasonable. My intent was still loving and supportive every step of the way. Her lashing out wasn't at me, it was a reflex. As much as I wish it didn't end our very nice morning, I'm finding a place where I can be more understanding, more secure, and more supportive. We're at the brink now so it's more important than ever.
Wackybunny, there's a chance you're with someone manipulative. I'm sure I've, over 6 years, tried to manipulate my wife's communication style and reactions to accomplish something or defend myself once or twice. She's probably caught me doing it too and that has vindicated her defense. If we communicated civilly would I have gone that road? Who knows? Chicken or the egg? I do know I'm not with her to take advantage of her, use her, manipulate her or discard her.. I'm with her today and tomorrow because I want to provide a good life for her, which is what I want her to both hold me accountable to and find security in, and those are things she can't do. I'm starting to understand why and that I need to support her in another way.
It's a good book, and very eye opening for those of us that want to be supportive.
Thanks for your reply!
Here's a scenario as fresh as Tuesday. My wife has bronchitis and a fever. I wake up, make her breakfast and tea, give her medicine and bring her to the doctor. I wait with her, then drive her to get meds. I'm offering the whole time to make more tea, run a bath, take care of things she has to do, etc. She's checking work email on her phone and I tell her she should to put an out of office message in and leave it alone, they can cover for a day and she should rest. She says she has to go in to work tomorrow and I tell her she should take some time with antibiotics.
She tells me that bronchitis isn't contagious. I tell her I never knew that. she looks it up on her phone and says, she's wrong it IS contagious. Now, all day and the day before she is coughing badly and seldom covering when she does. My reply is, "Ah, that said maybe you should cover your mouth when you cough."
We're home on the couch at this point after a long morning of running around and me taking care of her. We've actually had a very nice morning despite her being sick. But, I should have know what that comment was going to do. Her reply, "If you're going to treat me like **** you can go somewhere else, then you don't have to worry about it."
I said, "I'm just asking..."
She says "yeah with a ****** tone!"
so I went up to my office and left her alone for the afternoon until we ended up together again and she's acted like it never happened.
This is normal in our home, in our marriage. Unreasonable to me, and inappropriate. For 6 years I wondered what I did to antagonize her so much, why she was so angry with me. And so I fought back in that conversations, I pleaded, I made statements like, "I'm not trying to insult you" which always fanned the flames. I'd say, "why do you only hear the negative and the worst possible scenario?" and she's rationalize it and says because I play the martyr. So I'd walk away feeling like I do harm, and unsure of my own motives until I finally just disconnected myself emotionally. I stopped telling her how I feel, I stopped having conversations with her that might lead to parity, I stopped asking her what she thought without putting my own defenses up. Instead of confronting her with the tiniest thing (can you take that stuff upstairs on your way?) where she would blow up, I just let it all build up and make me angry and resentful that I can't communicate with someone who expects the worst from me.
Eventually my resentment started me having that "****** tone" and "the look" I give her probably WAS rooted in anger. Our sex life was over early because fuses were lit all the time. It was a self fulfilling prophesy.
Yesterday morning, I understood it wasn't me. For the first time in a LONG time I was secure in the fact that I did right by her and my ask of her was totally reasonable. My intent was still loving and supportive every step of the way. Her lashing out wasn't at me, it was a reflex. As much as I wish it didn't end our very nice morning, I'm finding a place where I can be more understanding, more secure, and more supportive. We're at the brink now so it's more important than ever.
Wackybunny, there's a chance you're with someone manipulative. I'm sure I've, over 6 years, tried to manipulate my wife's communication style and reactions to accomplish something or defend myself once or twice. She's probably caught me doing it too and that has vindicated her defense. If we communicated civilly would I have gone that road? Who knows? Chicken or the egg? I do know I'm not with her to take advantage of her, use her, manipulate her or discard her.. I'm with her today and tomorrow because I want to provide a good life for her, which is what I want her to both hold me accountable to and find security in, and those are things she can't do. I'm starting to understand why and that I need to support her in another way.
It's a good book, and very eye opening for those of us that want to be supportive.
Thanks for your reply!
hopping for freedom
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 847
Thank you for your post. I can relate to some of it. I might check out that book or something similar. If my bf (of ten years) liked to read, he would probably relate to some of it too.
I just wrote a rambling message then erased it. I guess because it hits home a little, have to process things. I see that when I'm totally over pot addiction, I will have to take a better look at how my bad moods might effect my partner. I'm not a terror or anything and life is not miserable at home, but I suspect he may also walk on eggshells sometimes.
I just wrote a rambling message then erased it. I guess because it hits home a little, have to process things. I see that when I'm totally over pot addiction, I will have to take a better look at how my bad moods might effect my partner. I'm not a terror or anything and life is not miserable at home, but I suspect he may also walk on eggshells sometimes.
hopping for freedom
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 847
I think my bf and I are both trying to shift the focus off what we are doing wrong. But I am better at it. Lol, sorry, just a funny way of saying that I get more defensive than he does and he is more nervous to set me off that I am of him. We have different styles.
He avoids doing things (chores, promises, responsibilities etc) and then when I say "you hardly ever do the dishes yet you seem happy to mess them up" he says "what are you talking about, I spend an hour every morning tidying up... well, no, not this morning but usually". Trust me, it's not true and it sends me around the bend. That's just a simplified example of how he denies that he is guilty of xyz. It's almost lying but he believes it. He has a serious pot and video game habit and most evenings and weekends are spent in a dark room, avoiding everything and ignoring me unless I get upset and angry or I have food for him. Very little help in the yard or around the house. Sometimes I get other men to move or fix things when they are here because after two years of asking I give up. These just random examples. He also won't give me an answer as to whether he wants kids - I'm 38 years old. He won't get any pets either. But he is such a sweet natured unconditionally loving guy. He thinks the world of me, is my biggest fan, tells me how beautiful I am every day, has never wavered in his commitment, tolerates my bad moods, never gets jealous, encourages me to do whatever I want and tells me to treat myself because I deserve it.
I am almost the opposite. I DO stuff all the time. I do stuff for him, for us, because it has to be done. I take the responsibility he doesn't want. I am fun, active, social and have tons of hobbies. I create a beautiful world for us to live in. But I do resent him. I do nag him. I want him to change, I don't love everything about him. I try to manipulate him into helping me in the garden etc., first nice, then nasty. I don't think I even want him to feel good about what he is doing. I don't respect his choices for how he lives his life. Sure, I do the dishes but I fail at loving him unconditionally. I almost left him so many times, I partly hated him for years, especially when he was unemployed and not looking for work. I felt like he was dragging me down. But that does not justify the bitterness and the snapping, the lack of respect. I should have either left him or accepted him.
I think I became so used to that feeling of stuffed down resentment, frustration, anger, injustice as a child that I almost have to have it there. I will pick something to have it be about. I might pick someone who gives me a reason to feel it. My bf's negligence is worlds away from the violent alcoholic who still haunts my nightmares but I almost feel the same way inside in those moments. Like I have to fight for my rights, fight to be heard, stand by myself because no-one else is truly on my side. I don't know of a quick answer. This has been a ten year road but it has gotten better.
He avoids doing things (chores, promises, responsibilities etc) and then when I say "you hardly ever do the dishes yet you seem happy to mess them up" he says "what are you talking about, I spend an hour every morning tidying up... well, no, not this morning but usually". Trust me, it's not true and it sends me around the bend. That's just a simplified example of how he denies that he is guilty of xyz. It's almost lying but he believes it. He has a serious pot and video game habit and most evenings and weekends are spent in a dark room, avoiding everything and ignoring me unless I get upset and angry or I have food for him. Very little help in the yard or around the house. Sometimes I get other men to move or fix things when they are here because after two years of asking I give up. These just random examples. He also won't give me an answer as to whether he wants kids - I'm 38 years old. He won't get any pets either. But he is such a sweet natured unconditionally loving guy. He thinks the world of me, is my biggest fan, tells me how beautiful I am every day, has never wavered in his commitment, tolerates my bad moods, never gets jealous, encourages me to do whatever I want and tells me to treat myself because I deserve it.
I am almost the opposite. I DO stuff all the time. I do stuff for him, for us, because it has to be done. I take the responsibility he doesn't want. I am fun, active, social and have tons of hobbies. I create a beautiful world for us to live in. But I do resent him. I do nag him. I want him to change, I don't love everything about him. I try to manipulate him into helping me in the garden etc., first nice, then nasty. I don't think I even want him to feel good about what he is doing. I don't respect his choices for how he lives his life. Sure, I do the dishes but I fail at loving him unconditionally. I almost left him so many times, I partly hated him for years, especially when he was unemployed and not looking for work. I felt like he was dragging me down. But that does not justify the bitterness and the snapping, the lack of respect. I should have either left him or accepted him.
I think I became so used to that feeling of stuffed down resentment, frustration, anger, injustice as a child that I almost have to have it there. I will pick something to have it be about. I might pick someone who gives me a reason to feel it. My bf's negligence is worlds away from the violent alcoholic who still haunts my nightmares but I almost feel the same way inside in those moments. Like I have to fight for my rights, fight to be heard, stand by myself because no-one else is truly on my side. I don't know of a quick answer. This has been a ten year road but it has gotten better.
hopping for freedom
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 847
I don't know what advice to give in regards to your post, I am nervous to comment on other people's situations which is why I start sharing my story instead. It sounds like you are really working on it and are very supportive. It usually takes two to get into these situations but one angry person can totally rule the roost and create constant tension. If it's not going to damage you emotionally and it feels loving/solid enough to be worth the investment, keep trying. Obviously there is a limit to what one should endure in a relationship. It can be hard to know what are normal relationship problems and what is damaging abuse.
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
