EveningRose

In reading another thread (NPD mother has cancer), I followed this link: https://sites.google.com/site/harpyschild/ and also found this one: The Narcissist's Child which has an entire series of articles based on the first site's list of traits of the narcissistic mother.

I've never considered my mother narcissistic, and some of those things definitely aren't her. And yet, I was surprised at how many of them are her, to a T, as if the author was watching my family and taking notes, in addition to many of them describing my AF.

After roughly 5 years of staying away from my parents, my dad has suddenly sent yet another Letter (in October), and my mother has just sent a friend request on facebook. It lands me back in the conundrum of what to do. Yes, I know the almost completely unanimous answer is continue to stay away, ignore it, don't even read them in future. And yet I know that, too, is going to be held against me, to not respond. In short, the lose/lose situation discussed on the other thread, and in this article and blog. No matter what I do, they will further slander my name and harm my relationships with others. I know this to be true.

So, the article and blog and reading people's experiences in the NPD mother thread were all eye-opening, even years into reading and learning. But it left me with the question:

Does it help us to have a label for our parents? Something like a diagnosis? Does it help us to see that they have many tendencies of NPD even if there will never be a diagnosis? Does it help us to see they have many of those tendencies even if, perhaps, they aren't actually NPD, but 'only' severely broken messed up people?

If so, how?

Does it help us to make decisions about how to handle what they keep throwing at us?

Does it help us simply by showing us we're not crazy, that these things are happening to others?

How many of these traits does a person need to have to be considered NPD?

What is the next step, after reading this and recognizing my mother so clearly in so many of the traits, and yet definitely not in others? Go learn more about NPD? Simply rest in the knowledge, once again, that I'm not crazy or Bad, despite the fact that my entire family treats me as if I am?

One of the things that is difficult for me at the moment is the feeling that I am slowly shutting everyone out of my life, and yet feeling that my mother has made it virtually impossible for me to have good relationships with these people, due to her decades of telling them negative (untrue) things about me.

I think on initially reading, which was in the middle of the night, I had more thoughts and questions, but I've forgotten them for now, so I'll leave it at that for the moment, and look forward to input and experiences.

Aeryn

Hi EveningRose,

I mentioned this in the other thread but I recommend getting the second book....it actually has a step by step treatment plan (the first step is recognition which is important)...the second step is something I had to do with a therapist though because it's emotionally difficult but I will say I feel better and different as I go through it even if it's hard. The third step which I look forward too is the part where you let go. I've simplified of course.

Just my experience but for me it was as eye opening as when some people on the F&F board discovered their partners were A's. My mother didn't drink and part of the NPD disease is gaslighting to the extent the child feels they are not worthy of existing and are inherently bad - those things stick in adulthood and working through them is the only way out.

The book is pretty cheap on Kindle..I strongly recommend it.

Regarding the diagnosis - my mother was diagnosed by my therapist and she got a "personality disorder" diagnosis from a therapist she ironically hired to fix me....and she is every single item on the list to an eerie degree (right down to the quotes)...but I have no idea how many one has to have to be NPD officially. Even if it's not official she has traits so maybe the book would be helpful.

EveningRose

What is the book called? Author?

EveningRose

Yes, as I read the list of traits and the examples and anecdotes, same here. Some of it was identical down to quotes, choice of words, exact phrases.

Aeryn

Here's one of the main books I read - this one has the three step sort of recovery thing in it which I liked.

Will I Ever Be Good Enough?: Healing the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers: Dr. Karyl McBride: 9781439129432: Amazon.com: Books

cleaninLI

Eveningrose I think it is important to recognize the symptoms or traits of our own NPD parents. I think it helps us to understand why we have certain issues in our adult life. Those issues are a result of how we were raised. The ways our NPD parents related to us. I had no idea why my mother was the way she was until now....after her death. I never knew others have dealt with the same issues as I have until now. It feels so freeing to be able to finally have that aha moment! To finally feel I'm not alone! The only reason I came across this side of the forum was because I knew my mother was ACOA. Otherwise, I could not relate completely with other ACOA because drinking was not part of the equation. I knew my family was dysfunctional. I knew my brother and my oldest daughter were the GC and I was the scapegoat and my father was her codependent but substance abuse was not relevant.

You have no idea how much your knowledge and insight and informative posts are helping me! I am so grateful to you and the other posters here who are writing about their childhoods. It's like I finally have people who understand. Thank you so very much!

One other thing, I understand what you mean by having problems with so many people that had contact with your mother. The same has happened to me. I never realized my mother was behind all those bad relationships. I knew she destroyed my first marriage, my brother's marriage and my relationship with my 1st daughter. She tried to breakup my 2nd marriage and my daughters relationship with her fiancé. It's only through the grace of God that my 2nd husband did not listen to her and warned me about all of the terrible lies she spread about me. She died of cancer before she did too much damage to my daughter's relationship. I have aunts and cousins who I'm sure have been influenced by things my mother has said. So I do understand what you're talking about.

I don't know if this is helpful or even possible, but could you have two FB accounts? One with a few fake friends and the real account. I'm so glad that my mother did not have a FB account so I never had to deal with that problem.

DesertEyes

What it did for me is it removed all the doubts I had about my perceptions and feelings. I lived with deep guilt over not being a "good son", I doubted my own feelings about my family of origin, my insecurities, my "baggage". All of which carried over into life outside my family and made my life _miserable_.

When I understood that my family was "dysfunctional" it became clear to me that I was _not_ a defective person. I was an _injured_ person. The reason I had "emotional defects" was not because I was an inferior person, it was simply the symptoms of emotional "injuries". If I had a broken leg I would not condemn myself for being unable to walk, yet I had spent my life condemning myself for all my emotional "disabilities".

The diagnosis of alcohlism was not about my parents disease, it was about _my_ injury. Having that diagnosis made it possible for me to find appropriate treatment, something I had never done before because I did not know what was wrong with me.

The next step for me was to work on healing _me_. Knowing the condition I suffered from gave me direction as to where to get help, but also where _not_ to go for help.

What I learned in recovery is that my family of origin is like a pack of dogs. When they get together they bark. A lot. If I want to be barked at, and bit, I can go hang out with that pack of dogs. If I do _not_ want to be barked at, and bit, I can go elsewhere. People who _like_ my family of origin, who think they are "normal", are just another form of dog.

I have found that the _best_ way to figure out whether a new person I meet is going to be a good friendship in the long term is to introduce them to my family of origin. If they get along, I drop them like a hot potato. If they turn to me with big eyes and say "What is wrong with these people?", then I have found a new friend.

Mike

EveningRose

I love it! :-D

Many excellent points, thank you.

CleaninLI, thank you for your kind words. No, my mother knows already which is my real FB account (which is to say, I have only one, and she knows it, because I'm friends with many of my relatives.)

Aeryn

Wow..this is my mother too (I moved 3000 miles away and she has still managed to infiltrate some relationships via PIs and facebook stalking)...with my my XRAH it didn't work though because every lie she told him about me he immediately reported...so yeah she hates him - LOL.

cleaninLI

Eveningrose what can we do to heal from our past? I'm already 50 years old. My mother is dead. My father is remarried. I have my own family/children/grandchildren. I feel kind of silly to dredge up the past. What's done is done. Isn't it a little to late now? Unlike you guys who still have problems. Yours are alive and still trying to ruin your lives. The problem is that I feel like I'm an actor in a movie all the time. Sometimes while going through the motions of life I get a weird sensation that I've left my body and watching from up above. Sort of out of body experience. Even at my age, I still don't feel like I'm a real person. I am just now trying to figure out my hobbies and interests. It feels like my job is to take care of everyone else. Maybe I try to fix or help people because it keeps me from thinking about having to fix me. Lol

Sorry, I think I'm rambling a little here.

Aeryn my mom hated my husband too. Lol She only liked the friends of mine that she could manipulate.

"I have found that the _best_ way to figure out whether a new person I meet is going to be a good friendship in the long term is to introduce them to my family of origin. If they get along, I drop them like a hot potato. If they turn to me with big eyes and say "What is wrong with these people?", then I have found a new friend."

Deserteyes, That is funny but sooo true!

Aeryn

I think you just answered for yourself right there why it's good for you to work through it all. (of course it's up to you and your decision) I don't see it as dredging up the past but as working through it and accepting it in order to let it go. My therapist said until I do that I will repeat the behaviors I learned to cope with that childhood environment that worked then but no longer work in adult life (things like over-helping and feeling "fake" - I relate to that too)! Also we tend to seek out relationships like our FOO ones unconsciously in order to try to do it better the second time (thus why many like me end up in a marriage with an A)...just some psychological stuff but it's stuff I personally believe.

EveningRose

This is key.

I consciously sought out someone who was nothing like my father. I married a guy who was pretty much a teetotaler, but lo and behold, it turns out he was an adult child of an alcoholic, and in many ways, very much like my mother.

In learning bit by bit, I'm seeing why I've had trouble with some people--because of my mother's behind the scenes behavior, things I had no control over. The link really helped. I've suspected it for several years now, but seeing in black and white really helps me believe, yes, it can and does happen. I'm not crazy for thinking so, and I'm not 'refusing to look at myself' as my mother would always accuse me.

I'm coming closer and closer to feeling my only option is to move far away again, and, better yet, change my name and disappear, fake my own death, so she and the people she's already swayed can never again unjustly impact my relationships.

AndreaB

Boy has this been an interesting read. I am so sorry for all of you coping with a parent with this disorder. The DSM-IV lists 9 traits and those with 5 or more are considered to be Narcissistic. My mother is narcissistic, but I was lucky and had a strong loving father. So I had the benefit of experiencing unconditional love from one parent. Also although my mother is narcissistic (she scores 8 out of 9), she was less cruel than many. I use to joke, however, that I could finish any one of her sentences with the phrase "because I am special." For example, "Do you like my new car? The dealership gave me the best deal. . . because I am special." And on and on.

I moved away the day after I graduated from high school thus saving my life. Unfortunately, after my father died, she insisted that I return to keep her company, and being the dutiful daughter, I did. After I married and had children, she did her best to capture them and turn them against me. What mother does that? The oldest child wised up pretty fast, but her younger sister was needy and wanted her grandmother's companionship. Her grandmother also gave her the things that I refused to allow.

Now, here we are decades later and she has dementia and is living with us ! Yes, I am an idiot. But the good news is that now she has lost her ability to manipulate and her underlying reasons for her behavior are obvious to all. I am vindicated. But whats better, is that my children respect me for surviving this women.

I would never recommend this to anyone. Do not care for your narcissistic parent! Big, big, big mistake. But we are surviving and it will end eventually, right? I just hope I don't die first.

Kialua

Does labeling matter to me? I guess not. I have read through the links and though I see some of my Mother there it doesn't make a difference to me.

I was always very certain and thought of my parents of just evil not caring what kind or why or if it was mental illness. I just disconnected emotionally and worked on my own life and world. They were intent on systematically damaging me and my siblings and I didn't need to know why, nor cared. Harsh but true I guess.

EveningRose

Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) : DSM-IV Diagnostic Criteria

I think what leaves me with questions is that the descriptions of the 'narcissistic mother' in the first link (the one I put here and that aeryn put in her thread on NPD mothers) is very much like my parents, neither of whom I'd call a narcissist. When I read the 9 traits in the above link, each of them might only fit one or two at most.

Of course, this returns us to the question of what do labels mean? At the bottom of the halcyon link above, is the comment: "Translation: they treat people like garbage." Kind of sums it up, doesn't it, and does it really matter what it's called?

On the flip side, I think it helps me a great deal to see that it's common enough people are writing about it and their experiences match up with mine. It confirms I'm not crazy. Something has been going on here, and the patterns line up exactly with my experience.

SLady

I wanted to say thank you for this thread. Dont know why I did not see the connection, but I believe my MIL was the daughter of a narcissistic mother.

My MIL was very domineering, my acoa husband (the scapegoat) could not do anything right whilst my BIL (the golden son) could not do anything wrong and I believe she took a lot of her anger out on him when he was little.

My BIL treated my husband the same way his mother treated him which was 'not-so-nice' and since I married my husband, he treated me the same way too!
And there I was thinking that the problem was his alcoholic father who completely ignored him as a child.

This info will not help my husband but is still helpful to my daughter. It explained my husband's cousins peculiar behaviour. One of them hijacked my daughter at a family gathering, she organised the sitting arrangement so that my daughter sit at her table and not ours, and told me that she looked so much like my daughter that people mistaken her as my daughter's mother. This coming from someone whose own son refused to have anything to do with her.

The other cousin came to our house and gave my husband his old photos plus a photo of a coffin!!! Crazy isnt it?
With relatives like this, who need enemies??? Luckily for us they do not live nearby, and I prefer it that way.

cleaninLI

Eveningrose I agree with you that putting the actual diagnosis or lable isn't as important as being able to recognize that our parent had certain behavioral traits or defense mechanisms in place that effected the way that they related to us. It helps me understand that it wasn't me or that I wasn't a "bad" child. I know for me I grew up with a lot of guilt. I thought I was responsible for my Mother's depression, her attempted suicides and her frequent rages. I thought that if I could just be a better daughter things would change. Knowing that she was NPD gets me off the hook. Knowing that other people here have had to deal with the same type of mother helps me to feel less alone.

Andrea you asked what mother tries to capture her grand child's attention and turn them against their mother? My mother! She did the exact same thing! She lavished my 1st daughter with expensive toys and clothes. She took her to lots of fun places. She totally ignored certain rules I had in place for my daughter. (Rules that she had in place for her own children! Staying up way past bedtimes and snacking too much between meals, talking back to or giving in to temper tantrums....etc.) She purposely broke-up my marriage to her father and then tried to gain control of our daughter. She bad-mouthed both me and my ex in front of my daughter. There are so many things she did that I can't even list them all here. So I can relate to you totally! Then after I married my current husband she turned my daughter on my new husband as well. When I look back on all this, I feel the worst for my daughter, who was only an innocent child. It breaks my heart what my daughter went through and how much my mother manipulated her. Now that my daughter is older she sees what Grandma did. She has a very strained relationship with her own father, her step-mother and her step-father as well as her other half brothers and sisters on my side as well as her Dad's side. Her cousin resents her as well because she was the "golden child". She really saw Grandma's manipulations when grandma tried to breakoff her engagement. Her fiancé did not like her grandmother. Luckily, now that my Mom is no longer alive to mess up everyone's relationship, my daughter married this last September. Things are going very well for her and my daughter is bonding more with all of us. It takes time but things are improving. Whenever she went to our hometown to visit her Dad, she refused to stay with him, but would only stay at grandma's house. Not the case now. My father remarried and told her she should spend more time with her father. That never happened while my Mom was alive.

One thing I can say is the best thing I ever did was move many states away from my mother! Whenever my husband and I had an argument of some kind, I never told my mother! NEVER! I knew she would use that info to her own selfish end!

That's my advice to anyone with a NPD mother. MOVE AWAY and have as little contact as possible. Never think that you can make them feel sorry either. They will never feel sorry. Don't tell them how you feel either. They aren't able to understand and will twist it and use it against you later. Whenever I visited my mother I never engaged in debates either. She was always right. I just tried my best to emotionally disengage and realize that she was a sick woman. She was very political and would ask us who we were voting for. I had to tell her I didn't want to discuss it. I will say I did a lot of yes, uh huhing, to her, just to keep peace and get through the visit. It's frustrating though that we can not be ourselves around our own mother.

Sorry this became a huge book!

Scott6433

Rose, I'm struggling with this exact thing as well.

Aeryn

That book I linked to you actually verifies this - children of NPD mothers (the disease not the label) have to develop strong boundaries, most opt for limited contact but many do end up no contact (it is not uncommon).

I think not having the knowledge my mother is NPD (the disease) would be like not having the knowledge my father or my XRAH were alcoholics- my mother has a disease that is basically one that NPDs in most cases CHOOSE not to get help for (they are that ill). I don't think finding a link on the internet and have a few traits does it either - in my experience if your parent is NPD you will know without question (there wasn't even a bit of "well maybe she's this part but not this" - it was a life affirming moment, knowing once and for all I was not crazy and the lies she made up to make me think I was were her disease not mine) - I didn't need to research or question it, I knew it was true the minute I heard it from both professionals - the reason? The emotional abuse is SEVERE to an extreme I cannot even describe (it was hell)...my therapist said it's as damaging as physical and verbal abuse...many get PTSD. My childhood was terror and I was convinced by a SOBER ill NPD parent that it was ok and I was crazy, now that I know my mother's illness I know I'm not crazy. I know many fellow ACONs that were abused by other family members or those outside the family and when told the NPD parent were chastised, told it was their fault and harassed...that's the level it goes to in my experience.

If you search the internet a bit there is a distinction between ACOA and ACON and for me it made a difference - I spent over a year here at SR and attempting Alanon just not really relating (well that's not exactly true I related but it just didn't feel quite right..hard to explain but it was like I was missing a piece), once I learned in therapy it was the ACON stuff for me more than the ACOA stuff (there is overlap of course) my recovery bounded forward quickly. I'm thankful to this day for knowing my mother's illness so I could move forward.

EveningRose

I discussed this with a friend this evening: how much is my mother culpable? She tells stories of her childhood that make me think she was born with bitterness, hatred, and a martyr complex. Yet I look at the choices I have made vs. the choices she has made, and I believe she may have been born with some personality disorder, and yet I believe she could have done better, too.

I read the list of 9 traits of narcissists on the DSM vs. the 26 on the link I posted here, from the other thread. The DSM's 9 traits sound nothing like my mother. The 26 sound very like her. I wonder if the Harpy's Child page is using the word narcissist correctly, and yet, I come back to the idea that it doesn't really matter if the author is using that particular word correctly. She's describing my life, which tells me I didn't imagine this stuff. Regardless of what it's called.

I still find a disconnect between my experience and the fact that I sought out a therapist who did EMDR, which is used particularly for PTSD. After all, I was told repeatedly that we had a normal, good family. It would be hard to say I had a severe upbringing, and yet I can look back and say they swore at and around me virtually every day, and that is NOT normal compared to how I'm raising my children. (The swearing of course is only one small piece.)

What is ACON, btw? Adult Child of Narcissists?