How do some people manage...
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How do some people manage...
...apparently...to always come out on top? And smelling like the rose?
This isn't just in my family, or alcoholic or dysfunctional families in general, of course. Plenty of people in schools, work, organizations, etc., seem to have this ability to behave in any nasty way possible, and nobody ever seems to notice, everybody still seems to think they're great.
Is it because they're that good at doing these unpleasant things only in front of a select number of people?
This isn't just in my family, or alcoholic or dysfunctional families in general, of course. Plenty of people in schools, work, organizations, etc., seem to have this ability to behave in any nasty way possible, and nobody ever seems to notice, everybody still seems to think they're great.
Is it because they're that good at doing these unpleasant things only in front of a select number of people?
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I think a lot has to do with the fact they are selfish and just don't care about anyone but themselves. They know enough not to break any law that will land them in jail (most of the time), but they will skirt right along the edges. Not because they are afraid of doing wrong, just because they want to avoid the punishment.
The rest of us actually care about how our actions impact others. We avoid doing bad things not because we fear the punishment, but because we don't want to harm others.
The rest of us actually care about how our actions impact others. We avoid doing bad things not because we fear the punishment, but because we don't want to harm others.
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Originally Posted by Mracoa 
I think a lot has to do with the fact they are selfish and just don't care about anyone but themselves. They know enough not to break any law that will land them in jail (most of the time), but they will skirt right along the edges. Not because they are afraid of doing wrong, just because they want to avoid the punishment.
The rest of us actually care about how our actions impact others. We avoid doing bad things not because we fear the punishment, but because we don't want to harm others.
The rest of us actually care about how our actions impact others. We avoid doing bad things not because we fear the punishment, but because we don't want to harm others.
Of course, I can answer that from my own life. Of all the ugly, hateful, hurtful things my parents have done, it's never in front of my kids.
My older sister knows very well some of this stuff, but I guess I broke the rules by not putting up with her bad behavior, so now she's going to pretend with them that none of it happened.
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I think what's frustrating me (surprise!) is the continued feeling that NO MATTER WHAT I did, I would have ended up in the same place, having the same issues with my children.
If I'd continued getting together with family, the yelling and ugliness would have continued. I would have either 1) finally gotten down in the mud and fought with them (ie, defended myself) and ended up looking bad as my family would have sided with the other person or 2) held my tongue, tried to behave with dignity and ended up showing my children that people can say and do anything to me and I won't object, and my kids would have ended up having no respect for me sitting there and taking it.
If I'd let my kids go to family gatherings themselves and simply stayed away, I would have given them a message that it's acceptable for a group of people to simply exclude others by their behavior; or for those people to treat one person differently than they treat the others. Plus, things would have been said at those gatherings.
If I chose for all of us to stop going, as I did, that would be (and is being) held against me.
It frustrates me that over and over through the years, I have NOT been the one yelling, calling names, hitting, making threats, or criticizing. I have held my tongue, tried to keep my peace, tried to accept people for who they are, and finally, when that last line was crossed, simply walked away without attacking. And yet...my kids view this as me 'having fights with' other people.
What in the world else could I have done? I was not 'having fights' with anyone. I was in the same room as people behaving badly and walked away from it, and tried to move on with my own life, looking ahead to positive things and not spending my time saying bitter, ugly things about them.
My friends promise me the truth always wins out. Right now, I'm not too hopeful of that.
If I'd continued getting together with family, the yelling and ugliness would have continued. I would have either 1) finally gotten down in the mud and fought with them (ie, defended myself) and ended up looking bad as my family would have sided with the other person or 2) held my tongue, tried to behave with dignity and ended up showing my children that people can say and do anything to me and I won't object, and my kids would have ended up having no respect for me sitting there and taking it.
If I'd let my kids go to family gatherings themselves and simply stayed away, I would have given them a message that it's acceptable for a group of people to simply exclude others by their behavior; or for those people to treat one person differently than they treat the others. Plus, things would have been said at those gatherings.
If I chose for all of us to stop going, as I did, that would be (and is being) held against me.
It frustrates me that over and over through the years, I have NOT been the one yelling, calling names, hitting, making threats, or criticizing. I have held my tongue, tried to keep my peace, tried to accept people for who they are, and finally, when that last line was crossed, simply walked away without attacking. And yet...my kids view this as me 'having fights with' other people.
What in the world else could I have done? I was not 'having fights' with anyone. I was in the same room as people behaving badly and walked away from it, and tried to move on with my own life, looking ahead to positive things and not spending my time saying bitter, ugly things about them.
My friends promise me the truth always wins out. Right now, I'm not too hopeful of that.
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Originally Posted by EveningRose
If I chose for all of us to stop going, as I did, that would be (and is being) held against me.
It's hard to escape the gravitational pull, but keep practicing healthy detachment. Does it really matter what they say? They only do it to protect their own egos. The alternative is to admit they have done bad things and most people put up some strong internal barriers to deny that, even to themselves.
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Originally Posted by Mracoa
Who is holding it against you? Your dysfunctional family?
It's hard to escape the gravitational pull, but keep practicing healthy detachment. Does it really matter what they say? They only do it to protect their own egos. The alternative is to admit they have done bad things and most people put up some strong internal barriers to deny that, even to themselves.
It's hard to escape the gravitational pull, but keep practicing healthy detachment. Does it really matter what they say? They only do it to protect their own egos. The alternative is to admit they have done bad things and most people put up some strong internal barriers to deny that, even to themselves.
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Originally Posted by EveningRose
...apparently...to always come out on top? And smelling like the rose?
This isn't just in my family, or alcoholic or dysfunctional families in general, of course. Plenty of people in schools, work, organizations, etc., seem to have this ability to behave in any nasty way possible, and nobody ever seems to notice, everybody still seems to think they're great.
Is it because they're that good at doing these unpleasant things only in front of a select number of people?
This isn't just in my family, or alcoholic or dysfunctional families in general, of course. Plenty of people in schools, work, organizations, etc., seem to have this ability to behave in any nasty way possible, and nobody ever seems to notice, everybody still seems to think they're great.
Is it because they're that good at doing these unpleasant things only in front of a select number of people?
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Originally Posted by EveningRose
It's being held against me by my children. They resent that I won't take them to family gatherings.
In the end, all you can do is teach them good from bad. Healthy from unhealthy. But as they grow up, they will start to make their own choices. Sometimes that means they make bad choices. The younger they are, the more control we have as parents. As they grow up, there is nothing we can do to protect them. We taught them good from bad, and they may need to learn some lessons the hard way. /sigh
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Originally Posted by legna
You know, I'd bet the national debt against a plug nickel that I'm happier than the rose smelling people. Smelling like a rose is overrated. I have the love of my wonderful wife, the respect of my father, am looked up to by my children. To top it all off, I am walking hand in hand through life with my higher power.
My children are under the impression that I'm 'getting in fights with people,' and I truly do not know what I could have done that was LESS like getting in fights. Time after time, since I was 16 (or quite possibly younger), I have refused to fight with them. I've simply walked away and tried to go do something positive with my life rather than spend it being angry or fighting or even defending myself. My children didn't see a lot of what was said and done.
I think for the most part, my children DO love and respect me, but it's hard to see them choose to associate with people who literally stand in my kitchen and call me a b*tch to my face (and I can guarantee I do NOT do that to them, nor did I do anything that deserved that), or have physically assaulted me...and then tell me I'm guilty of something.
Sigh. I spent a long time yesterday at church, and found some peace there. I will have to just move in to a back pew there to keep it! ;-)
Originally Posted by Mracoa
Yeah, that does suck. You do something to protect them and they don't understand it, so they don't appreciate it.
In the end, all you can do is teach them good from bad. Healthy from unhealthy. But as they grow up, they will start to make their own choices. Sometimes that means they make bad choices. The younger they are, the more control we have as parents. As they grow up, there is nothing we can do to protect them. We taught them good from bad, and they may need to learn some lessons the hard way. /sigh
In the end, all you can do is teach them good from bad. Healthy from unhealthy. But as they grow up, they will start to make their own choices. Sometimes that means they make bad choices. The younger they are, the more control we have as parents. As they grow up, there is nothing we can do to protect them. We taught them good from bad, and they may need to learn some lessons the hard way. /sigh
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We have a lot in common, Evening Rose. We have talked. It is hard, but I am finding...that the only thing that works for me is to continue healthy detachment and I pray for the kids who have gone with the alcoholic mother in her hatred...including a sister I defended all my life and stood up for...and two brothers. My Dad, apparently was my defender...it is amazing that nothing gets noticed...but it is true. I am finding a lot of happiness now after 13 years of battling the monster and just getting treated worse and blamed more. It is not worth it...although healthy detachment has been a real hard thing for me to practice...as I also have addicts in my own children...so the ugliness does get inherited and does get passed on. I am doing so much better in the past 10 years of taking care of myself (was at 0 on that before) and finally got to the point where I so want to just enjoy every day enough to walk away...let go; let God...and enjoy the good there is. God Bless.
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You said, "My children are under the impression that I'm 'getting in fights with people,' "
I wonder if your family are bad-mouthing you to the kids,or have done so in the past.
My mother and other relatives did that to me. I didn't know it then, but in hindsight I can see that was going on.
I wonder if your family are bad-mouthing you to the kids,or have done so in the past.
My mother and other relatives did that to me. I didn't know it then, but in hindsight I can see that was going on.
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Recently, two of my five children said the exact words that my toxic mother had told me 3 weeks before (I had a very weak moment and called her and was totally sorry)...mentally ill, and crazy and needing psychological help.
I was totally torn down and they also refused to receive me at their homes in my hometown (just left last August to do some work in Chile with husband, but needed a place to stay to start a new job...). One daughter is on the lease with us...but refused me.
It was very clear that I was not going to get any help and am so grateful friends have allowed me to be in their home on the other side of the bay (not considered as nice an area...and I lived there for 26 years). We got the apartment to share. Obviously that is not what happened...and since hubby won't take a stand...I am the one moving out and starting over from scratch.
I am battling the rage I feel and the alone and the horrible sense of it just never ends...so hang in...and stay with positive supportive people who care about you and love you...it sounds like you have them and you have them here.
Wish I had words of wisdom, but I don't...but I know that I have only hit bottom 2 times in my life...once after dealing with a child death, working, saving my husband's business, and helping my mother with my Dad's ultimately terminal stroke...and then she told me what she really thought about me...and once in this past year...when my ex-crystal meth addict with twins who we supported for 12 years through it...refused to receive me in the 'shared apartment', rejected her younger sister who is now a heroin addict, and clearly is talking to 'grandma'. I am letting go a lot faster now...because I have just wasted so much time love and money on these people (yes...I love my daughter and my mother...but not enough to let them cr*p all over me again) and they have simply turned their backs...and kept them turned and blamed me for all the stuff.
When I was 17 years old (now 58)...my father warned me about people who 'just want to know what YOU have done for THEM TODAY' people. It has been a hard lesson to learn that he was talking about family...not the outside world.
Stay strong and know that it is not you. Try to believe it. Try to turn things over to God. I am getting better at it...but it has taken me down several notches to see the same trait in my own family as in my parents. Someone said they are selfish and that is definitely true of those I am talking about...narcissistic selfish and self centered...so there is absolutely no winning for losing in those situations. Yes...they are christians too.
I was totally torn down and they also refused to receive me at their homes in my hometown (just left last August to do some work in Chile with husband, but needed a place to stay to start a new job...). One daughter is on the lease with us...but refused me.
It was very clear that I was not going to get any help and am so grateful friends have allowed me to be in their home on the other side of the bay (not considered as nice an area...and I lived there for 26 years). We got the apartment to share. Obviously that is not what happened...and since hubby won't take a stand...I am the one moving out and starting over from scratch.
I am battling the rage I feel and the alone and the horrible sense of it just never ends...so hang in...and stay with positive supportive people who care about you and love you...it sounds like you have them and you have them here.
Wish I had words of wisdom, but I don't...but I know that I have only hit bottom 2 times in my life...once after dealing with a child death, working, saving my husband's business, and helping my mother with my Dad's ultimately terminal stroke...and then she told me what she really thought about me...and once in this past year...when my ex-crystal meth addict with twins who we supported for 12 years through it...refused to receive me in the 'shared apartment', rejected her younger sister who is now a heroin addict, and clearly is talking to 'grandma'. I am letting go a lot faster now...because I have just wasted so much time love and money on these people (yes...I love my daughter and my mother...but not enough to let them cr*p all over me again) and they have simply turned their backs...and kept them turned and blamed me for all the stuff.
When I was 17 years old (now 58)...my father warned me about people who 'just want to know what YOU have done for THEM TODAY' people. It has been a hard lesson to learn that he was talking about family...not the outside world.
Stay strong and know that it is not you. Try to believe it. Try to turn things over to God. I am getting better at it...but it has taken me down several notches to see the same trait in my own family as in my parents. Someone said they are selfish and that is definitely true of those I am talking about...narcissistic selfish and self centered...so there is absolutely no winning for losing in those situations. Yes...they are christians too.
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Thank you for your caring and thoughtful replies.
Like you, Irisgardens, I find myself 'recovering' from these events faster.
This is very much how I'm feeling. And part of what gives me peace is knowing I have not done these things TO them, and am quite justified in expecting to be treated with the same basic dignity which I have extended to others.
Funny story. (Ha ha.) For years, people have told me the negative things my mother, in particular says about me, things that aren't true, never were true, things going back 35 years that are just ridiculous (and in fact, the truth behind some of those things could easily said to be major parental failure on her part and my fathers.) I have made it clear, when pushed, that this is one of my issues with my mother, that she tells and re-tells and tells again these stories, till people actually believe these things about me.
And now....suddenly XH is telling me that my mother encouraged her entire ladies group to buy from my web site (so why in the world do I think she's out to get me??) And my daughter explained that grandma always tells her to respect me (never mind my mother's behavior at the same exact time, of making plans behind my back for my daughter to move out was not teaching anyone to respect me). My daughter today told me how grandma's telling all these sweet, delightful stories about me as a child (so, once again, what's wrong with me thinking otherwise, hm?)
So, yes, my mother has done plenty of bad-mouthing. I don't know if she actually finally got the message that she's been blatantly wrong in doing so, or if she's actually that conniving to suddenly change her tune so people wonder how I got to be so crazy as to think this sweet little old lady would ever say anything mean about me.
Like you, Irisgardens, I find myself 'recovering' from these events faster.
(yes...I love my daughter and my mother...but not enough to let them cr*p all over me again)
I wonder if your family are bad-mouthing you to the kids,or have done so in the past.
My mother and other relatives did that to me. I didn't know it then, but in hindsight I can see that was going on.
My mother and other relatives did that to me. I didn't know it then, but in hindsight I can see that was going on.
And now....suddenly XH is telling me that my mother encouraged her entire ladies group to buy from my web site (so why in the world do I think she's out to get me??) And my daughter explained that grandma always tells her to respect me (never mind my mother's behavior at the same exact time, of making plans behind my back for my daughter to move out was not teaching anyone to respect me). My daughter today told me how grandma's telling all these sweet, delightful stories about me as a child (so, once again, what's wrong with me thinking otherwise, hm?)
So, yes, my mother has done plenty of bad-mouthing. I don't know if she actually finally got the message that she's been blatantly wrong in doing so, or if she's actually that conniving to suddenly change her tune so people wonder how I got to be so crazy as to think this sweet little old lady would ever say anything mean about me.
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What in the world else could I have done?
I'm not being accusatory when I say this: this is not about you. As my therapist once told me, "Sometimes the crazy is out here " *waving her hand at arm's length from her body*.
The crazy is out here, not in you.
Do you believe in your heart that nothing you could have said or done would have changed things one jot? Since the crazy is 'out here', there is nothing you can do to control it. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It is like unto a force of nature. You cannot make the rain come nor go, nor can you make your family behave reasonably.
My heart aches for you.
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Originally Posted by GingerM
Nothing. You didn't cause it. No matter what you did or didn't do, you would find yourself in a similar place - maybe the specifics would change, but the dynamics wouldn't.
I'm not being accusatory when I say this: this is not about you. As my therapist once told me, "Sometimes the crazy is out here " *waving her hand at arm's length from her body*.
The crazy is out here, not in you.
Do you believe in your heart that nothing you could have said or done would have changed things one jot? Since the crazy is 'out here', there is nothing you can do to control it. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It is like unto a force of nature. You cannot make the rain come nor go, nor can you make your family behave reasonably.
My heart aches for you.
I'm not being accusatory when I say this: this is not about you. As my therapist once told me, "Sometimes the crazy is out here " *waving her hand at arm's length from her body*.
The crazy is out here, not in you.
Do you believe in your heart that nothing you could have said or done would have changed things one jot? Since the crazy is 'out here', there is nothing you can do to control it. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It is like unto a force of nature. You cannot make the rain come nor go, nor can you make your family behave reasonably.
My heart aches for you.
As I have mentioned, I am currently starting completely over in life. There was nothing left...and I am so grateful to my HP for the job I hadn't been able to get in the past 1 1/2 years...finally...at 58 years of age...I realized that there was no one in my two generations of family who were going to stand up for me and do one thing for me...down to allowing me to stay in their homes on a short temporary basis (one daughter did, but was far away and has her own marriage issues going on which I do not want to interfere with).
Not one person in either family was going to support me in supporting this last child who is an active heroin addict, despite all the help and assistance given to the ex ecstasy, cocaine and rave one...and the ex crystal meth addict. And I just surrendered it all to my higher power...finally...because I hit bottom...had reached out been denied and told I was crazy...and I realized that my HP had to be in charge again...and more changes in me were required and needed...I had to quit hoping for any of them to show respect or appreciation...or any of the good actions I gave so generously to them over a lifetime.
Don't know what comes next, but do know that I have to continue detaching as if my life depended on it...because it does. Have to take care of myself and let Go, let God...again...deeper...more fully.
I am not happy that I had to lose everything to learn this...but I am happy to have gotten to a point where I simply know that there will never be anything good forthcoming, especially since I have nothing left to give them...positive is my way...but I told a few truths without understanding and that will be punished forever.
I am praying the serenity prayer and trusting my HP...one step, moment at a time. Only really good honest and caring, giving people in my life...so I can rebuild.
I am so sorry...my heart hurts and know yours does to. It is so empty to realize that there are people in this world who will do these things and enjoy their lives like nothing ever happened. However, I have seen both sides of these people and they are adept at keeping what you know apart from the people they want to believe in and love them. It is really frightening to me...and when I finally got worn down enough...I realized that it was my survival that needed to be taken care of.
Hope you can do this.
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Originally Posted by GingerM
Nothing. You didn't cause it. No matter what you did or didn't do, you would find yourself in a similar place - maybe the specifics would change, but the dynamics wouldn't.
...
Do you believe in your heart that nothing you could have said or done would have changed things one jot? Since the crazy is 'out here', there is nothing you can do to control it. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It is like unto a force of nature. You cannot make the rain come nor go, nor can you make your family behave reasonably.
...
Do you believe in your heart that nothing you could have said or done would have changed things one jot? Since the crazy is 'out here', there is nothing you can do to control it. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It is like unto a force of nature. You cannot make the rain come nor go, nor can you make your family behave reasonably.
It helps to hear it reaffirmed from others who have been there, done that.
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