EveningRose

Ah, a place where I don't have to recap all the garbage! In short, AF, codie mother, siblings with rages, scapegoating going on, my mother bad-mouthing me to anyone who doesn't run fast enough (I'm sure half the store clerks in my town have heard her assessment of my faults; my children, friends--note, my friends--and people at my church have all come and told me the stuff she says about me.)

I got tired of it and went NC. My parents and siblings still see the kids at extended family gatherings and have been invited to attend graduation parties for the kids. Every Christmas, I get pestered to let the kids go to my parents' house to get their gifts. My parents could bring them to the extended family gathering at someone else's house. I tell the kids every year my parents may come here if they want to see the kids so badly.

So lately, it came out that this year for the first time (that I know of) my parents did come here with the gifts--while I was at work. No one asked me or told me before or afterward. I feel a little invaded anyway, to know there were guests (if that's the right word) in my home when I knew nothing about it. This is my home.

Then I found out my parents had given the kids coupons for lunches out--again without my knowledge or permission. The kids haven't gone yet, but there seems to be no intention to let me know they plan on taking my children out of my house.

Tonight, my ex-husband dropped a son off at church on his way to work, and called me (I was just leaving work) to let me know he needed a ride home. I got to church, waited, waited, waited, in the foyer, finally went in looking for him, searched the rather large church, thinking he'd gone with the choir somewhere. Finally, after 20 minutes of looking, I found someone who said he'd gone with my mother. I had my cell phone with me. He hadn't called me to ask or let me know.

I called him and made it clear I didn't appreciate being left waiting, not being told or asked, and that other adults do not have the right to take my kids without so much as notifying me. I feel my mother, too, should have called me, not just taken him.

But my question is: what moral or legal rights do I have? This is ridiculous to have people taking my kids like this, or showing up in my house, or making tentative arrangements to do things with my minor children without talking to me.

Intrepid

Your parents are way out of line. Tromboneliness gave a reply in a different thread that is relevant to your situation. Here is a quote from the post: "These people have NO RIGHT to invade your house. They have NO RIGHT to see your kids. Or any of that." I can't say it any better than that.

As far as moral rights - your parents have none. I am not a lawyer, but I have researched this extensively because I feared that my mom would try to gain access to my children through legal channels if it were even a remote possibility. What I learned is that in some states, there are instances where grandparents are granted visitation rights by the courts. Usually this occurs in situations of divorce where one parent is granted full custody, and does not allow the other parent's side of the family access to the children. However, if there is any history of abuse or anything else that might make a grandparent unfit, then no, they don't get rights. Given that these are your parents, and not your ex's, to the best of my knowledge, they have no legal rights to your kids. If they wanted to go that route, however, they would have to go through the court system, and be faced with you presenting the history of alcoholism. Hope that helps. I think you can find information on the internet about what states even consider grandparent rights. It's pretty controversial. I don't think you have anything to worry about in your situation.

It sounds like your parents have been testing the waters, and they need to be reigned in.

dbh

Dear EveningRose:

I was/am the scapegoat in my family and I remember how hard it was to escape the pull of my family of origin's dysfunction.

I moved far away and had to go no contact for awhile while I worked on me and tried to find new ways to deal with them.

I'm at the point now where I don't expect my mother, sister, and brother to change. When they act in an inappropriate way it no longer surprises me because they are acting the way that they always did. I just choose not to be part of the craziness anymore. I'm sure they often still talk about me behind my back because that's who they are. However, I don't participate in those type of conversations anymore. When my mom would start talking about my sister or brother, I wouldn't respond. Eventually she stopped.

Due to the proximity of your parents and their interaction with your children you truly aren't "no contact". Unfortunately, their dysfunctional dynamics are going to continue to influence your life and your children. Picking up someone else's child without telling them is WRONG. Going into someone's home without them knowing is WRONG. In my humble opinion, they are treating you with disrespect and using your children to keep you trapped in their dysfunction. I think while you are living so close, you can't be "no contact" because if they are going to be part of your children's life you need to talk with them and set boundaries.

I can only imagine how difficult this is for you.

I could NEVER live in the same town as my FOO. Just thinking about being so close to them fills me with anxiety.

Hoping you are able to find a solution.

Warm Regards,

db

Sasha4

I'm sorry for your situation.

If someone (as in friend or relative) took my daughter while I was waiting to pick her up (not that she is old enough now) and I did know or I could get my daughter, I would ring the police.

I'm sorry but this is serious.
She should not do that.
To me that sends out the signal that if someone random was to say to your son, I am here to pick you up, then he might go with them in the car. That could be really dangerous.

The other fact that jumps out to me is that, if I am reading correctly your father is an alcoholic.

Does your mother forget to mention that when she is bad mouthing you to anyone?
Genetics play a huge part?
Were you exposed to his shenigans when you were growing up?

EveningRose

This is where I wonder how much the alcoholic family dynamics have skewed my perception, if I've given the wrong impression, blah blah blah. Here's this good Christian woman who cleans the altar linens and says her daily Rosary and alllll she did was offer my son a ride home and I have people wanting to call the police on the poor, dear woman. Yet I know they should not be taking children without any notice to me.

I will say, he's 16. He wouldn't get in a car with a random stranger.



He was diagnosed by a professional 25+ years ago in the wake of an incident of domestic violence that had me running away from him, barefoot, through snowbanks, him getting tazed by police (he wouldn't cooperate with them), spending at least a night in jail, and having a restraining order keeping him out of the house for I think two weeks. Yet he's a high-functioning alcoholic--I think. I never really noticed him "drunk," as in stumbling down, puking, missing work, sleeping in his own vomit. Yet my cousin tells me every time she sees him, he's sloshed. He's just goofy, cheerful, when he's drunk.

No, my mother certainly doesn't mention this fact. When he beat her up in the above mentioned incident, they went to counseling afterwards, became all lovey-dovey and arrived at the conclusion I was causing their marital problems. I've also said in previous posts that some strange memories I have lead me to believe that I spoke up about inappropriate beahviors on his part and was branded a liar, at a very young age, by a mother who otherwise would have had to face life as a single mother in 1972, or admit that she was keeping her daughters in a bad situation. I stress I do not know any of this for a fact. I'm grasping at straws both to explain these memories and why my own mother thinks so badly of me when I have excelled academically, and lived a clean and straight and narrow life, not doing anything to deserve these things she says about me.

No, she does not mention these things, to my knowledge.

EveningRose

Also adding--I'm sort of in a rush waiting for a ride to show up any minute--I had a talk with a friend at church who has known my mother for 30 years and this woman was a little horrified. Of course, my mother walks by this woman now with her nose in the air and won't speak to her, because she's my friend. Unbelievable! She pushed me to speak to my priest about this situation.

I also had a talk with all the kids together in the car, and made it clear they are not to go with anyone without my knowledge and permission, and that I will take stronger measures if this continues to happen.

My parents, btw, make cracks to other people about, "Why did she go and have all those kids?" Nice way to talk about your own grandchildren, the ones you supposedly want to see so badly.

Sasha4

I'm just angry and upset for you evening rose...xxxx

You can have as many kids as you like.
Most parents would be thrilled to have as many grandchildren as possible.
It seems to me your doing a great job of looking after them yourself without her input.

You did not cause any of this.
Its unfair of her or anyone to put this on your shoulders.

I think you do amazing not to mention your fathers behaviour!!
I don't know if I could hold my tongue, if that was my mum! You are a better person than me!

I know all too well the perception of those that sing the loudest in church are the best! Those that do the nicest job of the alter linens are the most saintly! When actually they could do with looking a little closer to home and their relationships with their love ones and nearest and dearest.

Have you ever sought counselling to help you deal with these feelings?
And yes I agree you should speak to your priest about this situation.
Your mum probably does not want to speak to her ex friend now as she feels ashamed that she knows the truth and is ashamed of her behaviour.

I sought counselling for some of my issues and it helped me immense amounts.
I know realise that sometimes my mum behaves/behaved in such a way because she does not have the skills to behave in any other way. And it helps me not rise in some situations and smile, rather than get angry and feel fed up for days on end.

I do think that your mum sounds like she wants to undermine you.
Could there be a slight jealousy aspect to her behaviour? Could she be a bit envious of you in anyway?

Just because she is you mum, does not give her any right to talk to you or act in anyway that makes you feel undermined, uncomfortable or sad. Thats not right. She has not right to you slander you to other people. I am sure she would not like you to bring events from her past up. Your father too should not do this.
Just because she is family does not make this acceptable in anyway.

I think you sound like an amazing woman.
You witnessed things in their marriage that you don't talk about.
You don't seem to throw any blame back to them at all.
She is not being fair.
Perhaps a reminder of this to her might be timely.

I wish I had better advice for you.
I just really feel for you.
I want to shake your parents into realising that they have an amazing daughter who they need to be very proud of.

Just keep doing what you are doing.
Know that you are right and keep moving forward.
You have handled so much, you can handle this too..whatever you decide to do.

And a final thought is that people often see. No matter how nice the alter linens look, you cannot pull the wool over some peoples eyes. I think you may be surprised when/if you talk to the priest. I expect he will be very supportive.

My best to you xxxx

EveningRose

And I most certainly do look after them. I have earned my masters degree and work hard. I don't ask them for anything. It makes me sad to see how she is begging my younger sister to do daycare for her full time, whereas she complains to people how I was always bugging her to watch the kids (not at all true--I asked for help maybe twice a month for only a few months, for ONE child, in order to go to marriage counseling), and how she always complained to me about my older sister wanting babysitting once a week to go out with her husband. I wonder if my older sister notices the difference. :-(


I went to counseling with someone who does EMDR a few years ago and she declared me healthy after a few months, lol! I kind of joke that I'm the sanest, healthiest person out there and I have the results of the MMPI to prove it. ;-)


I've taken a somewhat similar attitude with my mother. I think this is also a good way to word it. I just struggle to understand why some of us go to al-anon and do the work and learn the skills to behave differently, and some don't.

I believe she is. She has always regarded me as 'strong,' since I was quite young--a child--and I think that makes her angry.


I considered at one time leaving my church, since she goes there, too. I didn't because I'd already 'taken away' the kids' grandparents and aunts and uncles and was about to cause them more upheaval by filing for divorce. They were involved there, had friends, volunteered. It was very much their home, so I stayed, but always wondering what these older women must think of me. Bit by bit, I've noticed them approaching me, saying very positive things about my kids, my family, my parenting. I have come to understand she is, indeed, shooting herself in the foot by badmouthing me.

Intrepid

This is the scenario that your mother would like everyone to believe. My mother plays the same card. Just a grandma who wants to spend time with her grand kids... What could possibly be so terrible about that? The thing is though, that a "good Christian woman" does not habitually behave sneakily and violate other people's boundaries. Your mother is sneaking around behind your back because she knows that you would not approve of what she is doing. She has demonstrated poor judgment when it comes to children - her own children no less. The fact that she has never owned this, coupled with her current behavior of speaking negatively about you to others, shows that there should probably be limited or no contact between her and your children (and you). She is actively demonstrating her divisiveness. Now she is trying to bypass you to get to your children, which shows a complete lack of respect. This lack of respect toward you is consistent with decisions she made during your childhood.

Your actions and your mothers actions speak loudly to the people in your church community. Honestly, if a woman came to me and spoke negatively about her daughter, I would immediately be very weary of such a person. I am sure that most members of your church community can see you and your mother with clarity. It's admirable that you've chosen to take the high road in this situation.

It's great that you've made a good life for yourself and your children against the odds. Hang in there!

Kialua

Well this isn't going to get any better. Not from what you have shared up to now. She is just going to keep on trampling boundaries and doing what she wants. I don't know how you can stop her, short of going to court and that is really a crap shoot. (see my journal about commitment) You would have to gather so much evidence and then for the first time you "officially" complain against her it is usually dropped and then you have set up a pattern that is authenticated with police interference.

Have you thought any more about moving away even to the next town? That way she couldn't just show up at the end of the day and take the kids away without involving many hours which could allow you to involve the police. But that is big decision if you want to involve the authorities.

Hopefully your kids will comply and not leave without permission or at least a phone call. I know very well the angst of searching through a large church for kids. SO annoying!

tromboneliness

I'll be a good atheist and snort in the general direction of that one. People think if they pray loudly and conspicuously enough, that it makes up for all the cr*p they do the rest of the week. Ha!

T

EveningRose

Thank you, Intrepid, for the reminder and encouragement. It helps sometimes to see the same thing other people have said, in different terms. It helps to hear from the perspective of someone hearing about the Bad Daughter. I'm afraid I spent so many years listening to her make negative comments about others, I became numb to it and as much as I hated it...did I maybe think it was normal and that everybody else did this and believed these things they heard? I don't know.

I'll look for that in your journal. I talked to a friend who stressed the question of what do I want the final result to be, and what is the best way to get there. This is what I'm still pondering: do I send them a letter outlining for them some of these things and the reasons I don't make any effort to bring the kids to see them? I realize it will likely fall on deaf ears. Do I stick to a certified letter or a phone call saying, "You must talk to me first," no explanations because I AM their mother.

I do think about moving to another town. I'm back to thinking about it, and remembering the reasons I haven't pursued it: I'm still working on cleaning and organizing; the kitchen still needs updating and repairs that will be quite costly; the house is in no shape for showing (hardly the worst you'll ever see, but not showcase perfect by any means); I've just been through the wringer trying to refi to the point I quit for lack of time and realize buying a house will involve at least that much paperwork; I feel up in the air about the kids' dad being here long term--if he leaves, I'm free to take the kids out of state and want to keep my options open that way rather than having just bought a house.

Yet I know you're right. Moving a couple towns over wouldn't hinder my work at all, but would help immensely with some of the parental issues.


LOL. Let's snort together. The sad thing is, she gives others a bad name. I keep reminding myself, "The church is a hospital for sinners, not a hall for saints," yet I struggle with the question of how someone can pray that much for so many years and still be so bitter and hateful and out of touch with reality. (BTW, a bank teller who recognized my last name one day told me about this wonderful, cheerful, happy woman with the same last name who comes in all the time, and my sibling The Golden Child of course thinks she's wonderful--it's just a shame she's not consistent in being so nice to everyone.)

Anyway, I myself am very Catholic and some of the most influential people in my life, who have inspired me greatly and had such a powerful, positive influence on me, have been very devout. I just struggle with why her faith apparently has done nothing for her. :-( The best I can come up with is that maybe she'd be even worse without it, which really isn't very reassuring at the moment.

Thank you to all for your encouragement and support. It means a lot and helps me sort through where to go from here. Any continued advice on how to talk to them (IF to talk to them) is much appreciated.