An explanation of why we become codependent
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An explanation of why we become codependent
(While the quote below is dealing with mothers and daughters, I think you could apply it more broadly to parents and children of either sex. To me it helps explain why we develop a "false self.")
…Judith Viorst, in her book Necessary Losses, reminds us that when a mother is sensitively attuned, her responses tell us: “ ‘You are what you are. You are what you are feeling.’ Allowing us to believe in our own reality. Persuading us that it is safe to expose our early fragile, beginning-to-grow true self.” An attuned mother does this without thinking—responding in that instance when her baby looks up for a moment needing reassurance, permission, or validation, when she reaches for a toy or, later, is about to crawl or take her first step—and that maternal gesture of attunement is enough, Viorst reminds us, to allow us to “trust our own wish: ‘Yes, I want this. I do.’ ”
In contrast, Viorst writes, when our mother responds by “misreading our needs, or replacing them with her own, we can’t trust the truth of what we feel or do. Her lack of attunement may make us feel that we have been repudiated, assaulted. And we may then defend our true self by forming a false self.” Some unloved daughters will develop false selves to present to their mothers and the world at large—compliant images reflecting what their mothers expect and need—while others will continue to struggle with their lack of connection to the women they’ve been born to.
(pp. 141-142)
Streep, Peg. Mean Mothers. New York, NY: William Morrow, 2009.
…Judith Viorst, in her book Necessary Losses, reminds us that when a mother is sensitively attuned, her responses tell us: “ ‘You are what you are. You are what you are feeling.’ Allowing us to believe in our own reality. Persuading us that it is safe to expose our early fragile, beginning-to-grow true self.” An attuned mother does this without thinking—responding in that instance when her baby looks up for a moment needing reassurance, permission, or validation, when she reaches for a toy or, later, is about to crawl or take her first step—and that maternal gesture of attunement is enough, Viorst reminds us, to allow us to “trust our own wish: ‘Yes, I want this. I do.’ ”
In contrast, Viorst writes, when our mother responds by “misreading our needs, or replacing them with her own, we can’t trust the truth of what we feel or do. Her lack of attunement may make us feel that we have been repudiated, assaulted. And we may then defend our true self by forming a false self.” Some unloved daughters will develop false selves to present to their mothers and the world at large—compliant images reflecting what their mothers expect and need—while others will continue to struggle with their lack of connection to the women they’ve been born to.
(pp. 141-142)
Streep, Peg. Mean Mothers. New York, NY: William Morrow, 2009.
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I am the mother to a 16 year old daughter. I feel that the relationship I have with her is codependent, because my feelings depend on hers.
She has made quite a few mistakes, big ones, and has had some unfortunate circumstances arise. Yes, I have tried to control her. Of course I have. She is my child, and is making bad choices. But I realize that I have overstepped, and I have taken responsibility for things that don't belong to me. Its a delicate dance when you love too much.
When I read these things, all I can feel is sad. Because these things make it seem like mothers in codependent relationships with their children are unloving, uncaring, and basically bad parents. I hope this isnt me. My only crime is loving my child too much, being too scared of what might become of her, and trying to stay one step ahead of her.
I do attend CoDA meetings, and am reading books, and trying to get better, and set some healthy boundaries for us both.
Things like this just make me feel like sh*t.
She has made quite a few mistakes, big ones, and has had some unfortunate circumstances arise. Yes, I have tried to control her. Of course I have. She is my child, and is making bad choices. But I realize that I have overstepped, and I have taken responsibility for things that don't belong to me. Its a delicate dance when you love too much.
When I read these things, all I can feel is sad. Because these things make it seem like mothers in codependent relationships with their children are unloving, uncaring, and basically bad parents. I hope this isnt me. My only crime is loving my child too much, being too scared of what might become of her, and trying to stay one step ahead of her.
I do attend CoDA meetings, and am reading books, and trying to get better, and set some healthy boundaries for us both.
Things like this just make me feel like sh*t.
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Sorry if I took this the wrong way. I don't think I did though.
Kudzujean, are you someone who had a mom who was unloving or uncaring? Please tell me your story, so I can learn from it, and change my ways before my daughter has ill will for me..
Kudzujean, are you someone who had a mom who was unloving or uncaring? Please tell me your story, so I can learn from it, and change my ways before my daughter has ill will for me..
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I think the idea is that the mother/parent who is unattuned (eg thinking only of herself) creates a void or fear in the life of their child. That child then creates a "false self" or, perhaps, a chameleon self - one that makes the parent behave as though the parent was attuned to the child's wants and needs.
This becomes problematic as the child never develops a true sense of self, only a sense of "what I need to do to make people act like I'm not invisible", which, in turn, leads to co-dependency. Someone who requires the feedback of others to have a sense of self, would, by definition, be co-dependent. They would be unable to have any sense of self without someone else affirming it.
Alcoholics are rarely attuned to the feelings of others. My parents aren't/weren't. It took me a long time to develop my own sense of self that didn't require propping up from outside sources. And I was a textbook codie. (Was, past tense, I now have a well defined sense of self, but it took many years and a lot of therapy to get there)
This becomes problematic as the child never develops a true sense of self, only a sense of "what I need to do to make people act like I'm not invisible", which, in turn, leads to co-dependency. Someone who requires the feedback of others to have a sense of self, would, by definition, be co-dependent. They would be unable to have any sense of self without someone else affirming it.
Alcoholics are rarely attuned to the feelings of others. My parents aren't/weren't. It took me a long time to develop my own sense of self that didn't require propping up from outside sources. And I was a textbook codie. (Was, past tense, I now have a well defined sense of self, but it took many years and a lot of therapy to get there)
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Thank you GingerM.
I appreciate your insight on this painful subject (at least for me).
My father was an alcoholic, and I had my twenty year run.
I know I let my children down, it is still about forgiveness.
I am just starting with the Big Red Book.
Beth
I appreciate your insight on this painful subject (at least for me).
My father was an alcoholic, and I had my twenty year run.
I know I let my children down, it is still about forgiveness.
I am just starting with the Big Red Book.
Beth
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Julez, sure it does. It's the same process of looking for your sense of self only in the feedback of others. It's still an external, rather than internal, sense of self - the very thing that makes one co-dependent (lack of internal sense of self).
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Great thread!
I totally get that false self you present to the world. In highschool I used to live a double life. (quite deliberately)
And now In my current living situation with my AH, my "true self" is now fighting to the surface. And I keep saying," wait your turn! Not yet. Soon!"
once my AH does everything he's supposed to. Once all the planets align.
Well, you get it.
I totally get that false self you present to the world. In highschool I used to live a double life. (quite deliberately)
And now In my current living situation with my AH, my "true self" is now fighting to the surface. And I keep saying," wait your turn! Not yet. Soon!"
once my AH does everything he's supposed to. Once all the planets align.
Well, you get it.
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Sorry I was a while getting back to this.
My mother was unloving. I think now that when I and my sibs were kids, she was in a lot of denial, depressed and emotionally shut down.
I've said to other people in RL that I felt unloved as a child, and my older sister said the exact same thing.
In later years, we had a better relationship, fortunately. But when I was a kid, she was like she just didn't want to be bothered. She preferred to minimize or ignore what was going on, until she absolutely couldn't ignore it any more. And while I think she loved me, she didn't LIKE me, not at that time.
"does developing a false self make us codependent?" Yes.
My mother was unloving. I think now that when I and my sibs were kids, she was in a lot of denial, depressed and emotionally shut down.
I've said to other people in RL that I felt unloved as a child, and my older sister said the exact same thing.
In later years, we had a better relationship, fortunately. But when I was a kid, she was like she just didn't want to be bothered. She preferred to minimize or ignore what was going on, until she absolutely couldn't ignore it any more. And while I think she loved me, she didn't LIKE me, not at that time.
"does developing a false self make us codependent?" Yes.
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yes, my false self did make me codependent.
when I first read your post i thought of myself as the neglectful mother.
it is true. i have recognized and work on forgiving myself.
now, i remember, i had no guidelines to go by.
sigh........
i hope with all my heart i am stopping it now.
Beth
when I first read your post i thought of myself as the neglectful mother.
it is true. i have recognized and work on forgiving myself.
now, i remember, i had no guidelines to go by.
sigh........
i hope with all my heart i am stopping it now.
Beth
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This is so difficult. I find myself looking to my kids for approval. If I ever do anything that they may frown upon (and most of the time they don't pay attention) I want to talk it out, explain, make sure they still love me.
Wtf is wrong with me?? Teenagers are notorious for being emotionally f'ed up just because of hormonal changes etc, and yet, I give mine the right to control my feelings?
Not good.
Wtf is wrong with me?? Teenagers are notorious for being emotionally f'ed up just because of hormonal changes etc, and yet, I give mine the right to control my feelings?
Not good.
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Originally Posted by GingerM 
I think the idea is that the mother/parent who is unattuned (eg thinking only of herself) creates a void or fear in the life of their child. That child then creates a "false self" or, perhaps, a chameleon self - one that makes the parent behave as though the parent was attuned to the child's wants and needs.
This becomes problematic as the child never develops a true sense of self, only a sense of "what I need to do to make people act like I'm not invisible", which, in turn, leads to co-dependency. Someone who requires the feedback of others to have a sense of self, would, by definition, be co-dependent. They would be unable to have any sense of self without someone else affirming it.
Alcoholics are rarely attuned to the feelings of others. My parents aren't/weren't. It took me a long time to develop my own sense of self that didn't require propping up from outside sources. And I was a textbook codie. (Was, past tense, I now have a well defined sense of self, but it took many years and a lot of therapy to get there)
This becomes problematic as the child never develops a true sense of self, only a sense of "what I need to do to make people act like I'm not invisible", which, in turn, leads to co-dependency. Someone who requires the feedback of others to have a sense of self, would, by definition, be co-dependent. They would be unable to have any sense of self without someone else affirming it.
Alcoholics are rarely attuned to the feelings of others. My parents aren't/weren't. It took me a long time to develop my own sense of self that didn't require propping up from outside sources. And I was a textbook codie. (Was, past tense, I now have a well defined sense of self, but it took many years and a lot of therapy to get there)
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GingerM, how did you go about finding your own sense of self? I too am th daughter of a (Thankfully) Ex-Addict. I'm finally not angry about what happened in my childhood, however I am at a point where I don't really know how to move forward from it. I've leveled out but haven't figured out how to fix all the damage that was done, do you have any suggestions or insight?
I did things differently (the internet wasn't around when I was starting to get a handle on things). I started by studying Buddhism (Zen in particular) while also going to therapy off and on. The older I got (and the more I could see what was going on with me) the more therapy I went to. I've been in individual therapy for about 6 or 7 years straight now, and in "off and on" therapy since 1989.
The second question you asked is "How do I fix all the damage that was done." The answer is "you don't." You can't fix the past. That damage is a part of you. It is part of what gives you your "You-ness" BUT! What you can change is how you choose to function in this world now. You can let go of old behaviors that are not really useful outside of a toxic family. You can learn to see the world through a different set of eyes. You can find healthy ways of looking at your past.
No amount of therapy will erase my past. No amount of therapy will make the hurt 6 year old (fill in any age between 3 and, oh, the present) go away. Those experiences make me who I am today. I don't want them to go away (yes, I'm being completely honest - think about it, if you were to remove all those hurts from long ago from your personality, who WOULD you be? And how much blank space would there be in your personality?)
What I want is to be able to *act* on my life, instead of spending a lifetime *reacting* to the world around me. I want to be certain that if I snarl at someone, I do it *intentionally* (I've gotten very good at this recently - learning how to snarl on purpose to get someone's attention is completely different than snarling out of a place of fear or other historic triggers). I want to treat people the way I believe they should be treated, not the way I was taught to treat them. I have learned not to try to "fix" the damage, but how to use it to my advantage.
I want to stop focusing my energies on wasted space (e.g. my A parents) and focus it on me. So I've been in therapy. I've come a long way. I could not have gotten anywhere near where I am today if I had not had someone on the outside looking in at me.
All of this is a very long way of saying you'll need something like AlAnon or a therapist (I recommend one who specializes in dysfunctional families - these are most easily found by calling women's shelters and asking them who they have working with their clients who also does private practice). Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is good also, as is Dielectical Behavioral Therapy.
I wish you luck and I wish you peace.
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Originally Posted by GingerM
There are two questions really in this. The first is "how do I move forward from here?" The answer to that is "one step at a time, one day at a time." The likelihood of you being able to completely move forward without some kind of outside help is slim, I'll warn you about that. Many people here find AlAnon meetings to be a huge help to them. It puts them in touch with others who've "been there, done that" and really understand what you're talking about. By finding a mentor there, you may be able to progress into areas you never thought possible.
I did things differently (the internet wasn't around when I was starting to get a handle on things). I started by studying Buddhism (Zen in particular) while also going to therapy off and on. The older I got (and the more I could see what was going on with me) the more therapy I went to. I've been in individual therapy for about 6 or 7 years straight now, and in "off and on" therapy since 1989.
The second question you asked is "How do I fix all the damage that was done." The answer is "you don't." You can't fix the past. That damage is a part of you. It is part of what gives you your "You-ness" BUT! What you can change is how you choose to function in this world now. You can let go of old behaviors that are not really useful outside of a toxic family. You can learn to see the world through a different set of eyes. You can find healthy ways of looking at your past.
No amount of therapy will erase my past. No amount of therapy will make the hurt 6 year old (fill in any age between 3 and, oh, the present) go away. Those experiences make me who I am today. I don't want them to go away (yes, I'm being completely honest - think about it, if you were to remove all those hurts from long ago from your personality, who WOULD you be? And how much blank space would there be in your personality?)
What I want is to be able to *act* on my life, instead of spending a lifetime *reacting* to the world around me. I want to be certain that if I snarl at someone, I do it *intentionally* (I've gotten very good at this recently - learning how to snarl on purpose to get someone's attention is completely different than snarling out of a place of fear or other historic triggers). I want to treat people the way I believe they should be treated, not the way I was taught to treat them. I have learned not to try to "fix" the damage, but how to use it to my advantage.
I want to stop focusing my energies on wasted space (e.g. my A parents) and focus it on me. So I've been in therapy. I've come a long way. I could not have gotten anywhere near where I am today if I had not had someone on the outside looking in at me.
All of this is a very long way of saying you'll need something like AlAnon or a therapist (I recommend one who specializes in dysfunctional families - these are most easily found by calling women's shelters and asking them who they have working with their clients who also does private practice). Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is good also, as is Dielectical Behavioral Therapy.
I wish you luck and I wish you peace.
I did things differently (the internet wasn't around when I was starting to get a handle on things). I started by studying Buddhism (Zen in particular) while also going to therapy off and on. The older I got (and the more I could see what was going on with me) the more therapy I went to. I've been in individual therapy for about 6 or 7 years straight now, and in "off and on" therapy since 1989.
The second question you asked is "How do I fix all the damage that was done." The answer is "you don't." You can't fix the past. That damage is a part of you. It is part of what gives you your "You-ness" BUT! What you can change is how you choose to function in this world now. You can let go of old behaviors that are not really useful outside of a toxic family. You can learn to see the world through a different set of eyes. You can find healthy ways of looking at your past.
No amount of therapy will erase my past. No amount of therapy will make the hurt 6 year old (fill in any age between 3 and, oh, the present) go away. Those experiences make me who I am today. I don't want them to go away (yes, I'm being completely honest - think about it, if you were to remove all those hurts from long ago from your personality, who WOULD you be? And how much blank space would there be in your personality?)
What I want is to be able to *act* on my life, instead of spending a lifetime *reacting* to the world around me. I want to be certain that if I snarl at someone, I do it *intentionally* (I've gotten very good at this recently - learning how to snarl on purpose to get someone's attention is completely different than snarling out of a place of fear or other historic triggers). I want to treat people the way I believe they should be treated, not the way I was taught to treat them. I have learned not to try to "fix" the damage, but how to use it to my advantage.
I want to stop focusing my energies on wasted space (e.g. my A parents) and focus it on me. So I've been in therapy. I've come a long way. I could not have gotten anywhere near where I am today if I had not had someone on the outside looking in at me.
All of this is a very long way of saying you'll need something like AlAnon or a therapist (I recommend one who specializes in dysfunctional families - these are most easily found by calling women's shelters and asking them who they have working with their clients who also does private practice). Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is good also, as is Dielectical Behavioral Therapy.
I wish you luck and I wish you peace.
I've also tried therapy, and while I found that it was helpful, working and school got in the way. Some how I get the feeling that I'm getting in my own way of beginning to "live" my life and make peace with the past. Your advise and the way you speak about it is inspiring, most of the people I've spoken too have this air of "sweep it under the rug" around them.
Thank you
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most of the people I've spoken too have this air of "sweep it under the rug" around them
But now I live on my own. I can choose to speak of the elephant if I want. I no longer feel shame at my parents' behavior. They are responsible for their behavior, I am responsible for mine. If they choose to behave in ways that alienate others from them, well, that's their issue. I choose to no longer pretend there is no elephant. Not that I run around telling anyone who will listen, but if the subject comes up, I don't shy away from it.
It is part of who I am - both the years of denial and the current acceptance. I will be true to myself, I will not listen to the old tapes in my head that tell me not to air my dirty laundry. If I never air it, it only gets dirtier. I like my laundry clean.
I do wish you luck in whatever path you take, and I wish you peace along that path.
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What a wonderful thread. Still processing (sounds like a computer- hehe). I just wanted to mention a book I read that addressed a very similar idea in a way that resonated for me. "Controlling People" by Patricia Evans. She described this type of behavior from a parent (or anyone we encounter in life) as a "backward connection" when someone disregards or can't comprehend that we are separate and unique people and they override our feelings or opinions. I sure know it affected me and is one of the reasons for my codependence.
As a little side story about my mom. I did what she told me to, pretty much. In retrospect, I think I believed for most of life that if I could just do what she wanted one day she would approve of me (and lay off!). Then, when I was about 32 or so, something happened that was huge to me. She had always said I should be a lawyer, since I was little. I liked science and was the painfully shy kid who hated to speak in public so law was a bad choice for my personality. (She, on the other hand was flamboyant and loved to speak publicly and all.) Anway, I went to law school when I was about 32, desperately wanting her approval. In my first year, I won a prize and when she came over I was just bouncing off the walls to tell her and make her happy, I thought. I told her, and I was obviously proud and excited. She went deadpan and said, "I knew you should have gone to business school." I completely deflated and my shoulders slumped and eyes welled up. Thing is, my husband reacted, just reflexively, and I'm glad he did. He said, "Oh my GOD!" and then she started to rattle on about how she just knew that business was a better choice for me. He and I just stood there staring at her. That was when I realized that I had spent 32 years trying to please and be seen by a "mean mother." My jumping through hoops and living for someone else was pointless- she did not see me or know that I was a separate person. She would always keep moving the hoop or find a new one for me to jump through. And oddly, it wasn't even about me. Anyway, just kind of reminiscing. That was almost 20 years- and lots of alanon and therapy and books and you name it- ago. The codependence is and will always be a lifepath for me, and its not a bad path at all. I'm glad for it now; I reeeaaly need it. Anyway, that's that.
I'm going to buy those books, kudzujean. They seem to go a step further than Evans' book does.
As a little side story about my mom. I did what she told me to, pretty much. In retrospect, I think I believed for most of life that if I could just do what she wanted one day she would approve of me (and lay off!). Then, when I was about 32 or so, something happened that was huge to me. She had always said I should be a lawyer, since I was little. I liked science and was the painfully shy kid who hated to speak in public so law was a bad choice for my personality. (She, on the other hand was flamboyant and loved to speak publicly and all.) Anway, I went to law school when I was about 32, desperately wanting her approval. In my first year, I won a prize and when she came over I was just bouncing off the walls to tell her and make her happy, I thought. I told her, and I was obviously proud and excited. She went deadpan and said, "I knew you should have gone to business school." I completely deflated and my shoulders slumped and eyes welled up. Thing is, my husband reacted, just reflexively, and I'm glad he did. He said, "Oh my GOD!" and then she started to rattle on about how she just knew that business was a better choice for me. He and I just stood there staring at her. That was when I realized that I had spent 32 years trying to please and be seen by a "mean mother." My jumping through hoops and living for someone else was pointless- she did not see me or know that I was a separate person. She would always keep moving the hoop or find a new one for me to jump through. And oddly, it wasn't even about me. Anyway, just kind of reminiscing. That was almost 20 years- and lots of alanon and therapy and books and you name it- ago. The codependence is and will always be a lifepath for me, and its not a bad path at all. I'm glad for it now; I reeeaaly need it. Anyway, that's that.
I'm going to buy those books, kudzujean. They seem to go a step further than Evans' book does.
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