the past

Old 09-14-2009, 08:42 PM
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the past

im not really sure where to start with it.

My mom has always been sick. I think there was only one time where she wasn't sick. I wish she could be like that. I remember not to long ago feeling bad when I said "I don't really have a mother." But its true. She's always been sick. I've never felt particularly connected with her, like some mother / daughter relationships are where the mom knows somethings not right and the daughter can spill her guts out to her mom. I dont know relationships like that. Now that i'm older she treats me more like a friend. Someone to tell all her problems to. She says i can talk to her anytime. But i've never felt comfortable doing so. I have enough to deal with, and then she comes, and tells me all her problems, her health problems her self esteem issues, her problems with how she feels about dad. Its not stuff I really need to know.

Dad, as I remember it. When i was young and in school went to work before I woke up for school. and came home around bedtime. and worked overtime on weekends. So, not much time for us. I never did feel comfortable talking to him.

Although i never felt comfortable talking to anyone about anything personal. And i was horrible with accepting help. No one knew i was terrified of fire alarms. I didn't tell anyone until i was almost out of school. I didn't start opening up about anything till I got depressed. And that was with only a select few people. I was mad at my parents for not seeing it. They saw it but never said anything. I dont know why.

Looking at things now knowing about codependency, i see it a lot in my family. My mom, my dad, my sister, my ex, my uncle, my aunt. I just hope i can get past this, so that i can have a better future while i still can.

I'm really only doing this myself. My family doesn't know about it. Some friends do. But its still difficult. Sometimes I think about therapy, cause I know I've got a few different things going on. Old stuff that was never resolved cause i never talked to anyone, about anything. But I'm unsure of that too.

I think that's all I'll write for now. Please comment.

~03fifteen
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Old 09-15-2009, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by 03fifteen View Post
She says i can talk to her anytime. But i've never felt comfortable doing so. I have enough to deal with, and then she comes, and tells me all her problems, her health problems her self esteem issues, her problems with how she feels about dad. Its not stuff I really need to know.
Yeah, I hear you, 03fifteen. This is the same between me and both my parents. They just don't know how to be good parents. Either that, or they just don't know how to listen. My AF thinks that he's doing a GREAT job by ranting to me about all his problems (including all the things about mom that make him unhappy). I've learned from my parents that I'm never allowed to have any problems. I have literally sat in the middle of my parents' house crying in depression as a young adult, and never did either of them dare ask what was wrong. They don't want to know.

I don't know if this will apply to you, but I found reading about emotional incest very insightful into the relationship I had with my parents (more my dad than my mom). It hits bang-on the complete one-sided failure of boundaries between dysfunctional parents and their children.

Originally Posted by 03fifteen View Post
I'm really only doing this myself. My family doesn't know about it. Some friends do. But its still difficult.
I think this is a wise course of action here. Don't tell your family. If they haven't been ready to acknowledge your perspective in all this time, mentioning a therapist isn't going to tip those scales. FWIW mentioning therapy to my family brought out the denial("what was so bad"... sedgeway into denial with irrational excuses) and the expectation that I was ready to come home again and resume my domestic duty as therapist. You are doing the right thing by doing it for yourself.

Originally Posted by 03fifteen View Post
Sometimes I think about therapy, cause I know I've got a few different things going on. Old stuff that was never resolved cause i never talked to anyone, about anything. But I'm unsure of that too.
Once I found the right counsellor, therapy increased my progress by leaps and bounds. Because there are many old habits (even in your thinking) to break, some therapy to reinforce that your new habits are helping you really helped seal the recovery deal for me. Even among your friends, you are in this alone. There are very few people you can talk to who understand and know how to discuss it with you without reinforcing the negative thinking that keeps us stuck. FWIW a colleague once carelessly commented on my decision to move far (and incidentally from my family, which was really the point). They pointed out that I would be abandoning them, since it sounded like they relied on me so much. I went home and cried hard about it, but afterwards I reminded myself that this person just didn't know any better. Without the benefit of therapy, something like that would have been powerful enough to make me abandon my plans.
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Old 09-15-2009, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by dothi View Post

I don't know if this will apply to you, but I found reading about emotional incest very insightful into the relationship I had with my parents (more my dad than my mom). It hits bang-on the complete one-sided failure of boundaries between dysfunctional parents and their children.
I looked up emotional incest. it does seem to fit the relationship between me and my mom. she probably chose me because i've always been "the listener". My only other sibling is my twin sister. And she works all the time. So i was the choice. I guess. I'm sure what didn't help my case is that i'm very empathetic. Anyway. Thank you very much Dothi for the comment. i will hopefully post more soon.
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Old 09-15-2009, 08:29 PM
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I've, for a long time, felt that since my situation isn't as bad as most other people's situation, maybe i dont have a problem. Maybe its just in my head. I dont feel justified for having these feelings and such. I felt that when i was depressed. like, i shouldn't be depressed because there is no reason for me to feel this way. Maybe its denial.
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Old 09-16-2009, 04:20 AM
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Originally Posted by 03fifteen View Post
I've, for a long time, felt that since my situation isn't as bad as most other people's situation, maybe i dont have a problem. Maybe its just in my head. I dont feel justified for having these feelings and such. I felt that when i was depressed. like, i shouldn't be depressed because there is no reason for me to feel this way. Maybe its denial.
Well done 03fifteen.

This is a very inciteful post. Yes, it was that bad. Yes, there are real reasons for you to be depressed.

I think as ACAOs we have to accept that we have every right and justification to feel the way we do.

I have lived so long with lies, half-truths and denial and it is only now that I am coming to terms with new truths and new realities and a lot of them ain't pretty (Of course, that's why they were denied and lied about in the first place). It takes a while but for me clarity is coming every day.

Take care, IWTHxxx
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Old 09-16-2009, 05:50 AM
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I'm going to look up emotional incest too, Dothi. My mom was just like 03fifteen's (and yours) and I was her wailing wall since I knew how to listen. I've never heard that term but I'm intrigued.

03fifteen, you're doing the right thing in focusing on yourself and taking care of you. Therapy is a good option if you can work it out, but living at home that might pose a problem (paying for it, getting there etc.) What do you think you parents would say if you told them you wanted to see a counselor? Have you thought about it?

Hugs
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Old 09-16-2009, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by takincareome View Post
03fifteen, you're doing the right thing in focusing on yourself and taking care of you. Therapy is a good option if you can work it out, but living at home that might pose a problem (paying for it, getting there etc.) What do you think you parents would say if you told them you wanted to see a counselor? Have you thought about it?

Hugs
I thought about it when i got really depressed a few years back. But i also thought that if i talked about it they would think I'm crazy. I never even told them about the one time I saw the school therapist. They asked and I lied and said i went to her with my friend. I was afraid to tell them. And i feel guilty about it. I kinda feel like wanting to see a counselor is like disrespecting my parents. I wish i had taken more advantage of having a therapist at our school. Cause i was comfortable with her and everything. She mainly works with older school kids. Maybe if i find a way if i can get in touch with her i can talk to her. Maybe ask her about it or something.
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Old 09-16-2009, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by 03fifteen View Post
they would think I'm crazy. I never even told them about the one time I saw the school therapist. They asked and I lied and said i went to her with my friend. I was afraid to tell them. And i feel guilty about it. I kinda feel like wanting to see a counselor is like disrespecting my parents.
I hear what you're saying, 03fifteen. When I mentioned that I wanted to see a counsellor in high school, I got a lot of, "what did we do so wrong?" I got a lot of blame (for not sucking it up AND for not giving them enough credit), guilt (told I didn't appreciate them), and denial (it wasn't that bad).

Have you ever heard of toxic guilt, 03fifteen? You know it's toxic because it usually happens when you're trying to do something good for yourself.

When I mentioned a counsellor, my AF took it personally, and refused to pick me up or drop me off for appointments. He told the whole family that counsellors just put ideas into your head and make you worse. I was very lucky that I got to go to university (this was something AF approved) and access services there. I have never mentioned this to my parents because it is my private business. Sure, sometimes I talked about them, but often I talked about a lot of other stuff too.

It's very important to understand that respecting your parents doesn't mean you have to tell them everything 100% As you've probably already read here on this forum, healthy relationships involve healthy boundaries (not immeshment). You are allowed to have your own thoughts and feelings without having to explain them.

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Old 09-16-2009, 08:54 AM
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Here's an article on toxic guilt I found by googling the term. I hope it helps!

Toxic Guilt, Healthy Guilt
By Margaret Paul, Ph.D.

Guilt is an important feeling. It is the appropriate feeling to have when we have deliberately done something hurtful or harmful to others. People who can harm others without any feelings of guilt or remorse were formerly called sociopaths or psychopathic personalities, and are now defined as suffering from Anti-social Personality Disorder. Anti-social Personality Disorder is a severe disorder that includes - along with many other symptoms - the lack of a conscience. Without a conscience, people can deliberately harm others without ever feeling guilt or remorse.

While it is very important to feel guilt at deliberately harming others, many people feel toxic guilt. Toxic guilt is inappropriate guilt - guilt that comes from self-judgments regarding having done something wrong when is no actual wrongdoing.

For example Fran, one of my clients, was exploring the guilt she feels when she speaks with her mother.

“No matter what I say, my mother always seems to feel hurt and then I feel guilty at hurting her. Sometimes I wish I never had to talk with my mother. I don’t want to not have a relationship with her, but I hate feeling guilty all the time.”

Fran’s feelings of guilt are not coming from actually inflicting harm on her mother. Her feelings are coming from the self-judgment that she absorbed from her mother’s judgments of her. Her guilt is coming from the fact that she is telling herself she is doing something wrong. Fran falsely believes that if someone feels hurt, it must be her fault.

Fran’s mother taught Fran that when her mother was feeling hurt, it was Fran’s fault. Now Fran feels guilty whenever someone she is involved with feels hurt or angry. However, it is not the other person’s feelings, nor their blame, anger or judgment toward her that is causing Fran to feel guilty. It is her own self-judgment that is causing her feelings of guilt. If Fran did not believe that she was responsible for causing others’ feelings, she would not feel guilty when her mother or others blamed her for their feelings.

Fran actually knows that she is not doing anything wrong, yet she continues to judge herself whenever her mother or others are hurt or upset. There is a very good reason for this.

Fran WANTS to believe that she is causing others’ feelings because it gives her a sense of control over how others feel about her. The wounded part of her that wants to control how others feel about her reasons that, “If I can cause others to be hurt or upset, I can also cause them to be loving and accepting. If I just do things right, then I can control how others feel about me and treat me.” This belief in control gives Fran the illusion of safety. She does not want to know that she is not in control over how others feel about her and treat her. She does not want to know that she does not pull the strings on others’ feelings and behavior.

While Fran doesn’t like the feeling of guilt, she is unconsciously willing to go on feeling guilty in order to maintain her illusion of control. If she comes into truth about her lack of control over how others feel about her and treat her, her toxic guilt will disappear. Toxic guilt and an addiction to control go hand and hand.

We all need to be able to feel healthy guilt - the guilt that comes from actual wrongdoing. But toxic guilt is not good for anyone. You can move beyond toxic guilt by understanding that:

* the belief that you can control others feelings and behavior by doing things "right" ==>
* leads to self-judgment to control your own behavior to get yourself to do it "right" ==>
* which leads to toxic guilt.

The way out of toxic guilt is to:

* fully accept of your lack of control over others feelings and behavior ==>
* which leads to a lessening of self-judgment ==>
* which leads to a lessening of toxic guilt.

With practice, you can completely eliminate your toxic guilt. It’s all up to you!
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Old 09-16-2009, 09:11 AM
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I remember feeling like I couldn't go outside and go for a walk or just go in the backyard without telling them where I went or I would get into trouble. Another thing to work on.

Thank you dothi, takincareome, and Iwanttoheal for all of your comments so far. hugs
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Old 09-18-2009, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by 03fifteen View Post
I've, for a long time, felt that since my situation isn't as bad as most other people's situation, maybe i dont have a problem. Maybe its just in my head. I dont feel justified for having these feelings and such. I felt that when i was depressed. like, i shouldn't be depressed because there is no reason for me to feel this way. Maybe its denial.
Wow, I really see myself in your quote. "It's not that bad...it's not like I'm getting beaten every day like some people, what do I have to complain about? Other people have it worse..." and so on and so forth. One of my breakthroughs came when I realized that even thought the actions may be different, the RESULTS are the same...there is damage to the psyche and intellect and ability to cope, no matter the degree.


The therapy...not worth mentioning. When I once dared open up to my mother (why she has always been able to con me into believing she cares, I don't know), her response was, "What did you say about me?" and made all sorts of accusations that I blamed her for everything that was wrong in my life (it's always all about her!).

I think it is common (from my experience) for parents to "open up" to you about their marital problems, which is ABUSE, then not seem concerned or tell you you're being overly sensitive or you need to cowboy up, etc. when you explain your problems.
I once was on the phone with my mother, discussing something about my husband that I didn't like (guess we all do that from time to time), and she replied, "Well, at least YOUR husband doesn't..." listing my father's faults. I finally said to her, "If you refuse to do anythign to change your situation, you have no right to complain about it." She, of course, hung up. I again said something cruel and hateful to her.

There comes a point when you realize you cannot trust certain people, relatives or not. It took me a lot to learn it, but I got it good and firm through my head now, finally.
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Old 09-19-2009, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by TheGirlInside View Post
her response was, "What did you say about me?" and made all sorts of accusations that I blamed her for everything that was wrong in my life (it's always all about her!)
Wow, sounds like you hit quite the nerve - tapped some well-denied reality, you think?

Originally Posted by TheGirlInside View Post
I think it is common (from my experience) for parents to "open up" to you about their marital problems, which is ABUSE, then not seem concerned or tell you you're being overly sensitive or you need to cowboy up, etc. when you explain your problems.
I once was on the phone with my mother, discussing something about my husband that I didn't like (guess we all do that from time to time), and she replied, "Well, at least YOUR husband doesn't..." listing my father's faults. I finally said to her, "If you refuse to do anythign to change your situation, you have no right to complain about it." She, of course, hung up. I again said something cruel and hateful to her.
You were NOT CRUEL here. You were setting a boundary, and she responded by heaping back guilt. How dare you have your own needs, right? - including the need for relief from listening to uncomfortable, unsettling b*tching about your own father.

Don't they say when parents divorce, that one thing they can do for their kids is not complain about the other parent? Why doesn't this rule apply in "functional" marriages too?

I've had this relationship in similar forms with both of my parents - mainly with my AF. What you said to your mom my sister and I have practiced the line almost verbatim to our own mother. However I have never said this to my AF, because I know he would know just what to do to make me feel guilty. These people have an amazing capacity to not acknowledge your pain or discomfort. That doesn't mean these feelings aren't there.

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Old 09-19-2009, 12:46 PM
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Kari, I love that quote, "If you refuse to do anything to change your situation, you have no right to complain about it." You just summed up my entire relationship with my mother. She does *nothing* to change ANYTHING in her life -- her financial mess, her emotional mess, her unhappiness, her bitterness, her codependency -- but she really enjoys wringing her hands and complaining about it all!!

I've actually said something like this to her, and gotten a similar reaction as well. She's complained to me about my AF as long as I can remember. First it was their marital problems and his drinking and her unhappiness. Then it was the fact that he had the NERVE to find someone else and leave her. She had it all worked out in her head -- she was going to be the one to find someone and leave. But it didn't work out that way, and she can't stand it!

All of these discussions here are so helpful. It's so nice to find people who understand.
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Old 09-19-2009, 12:54 PM
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Oh, and PS, just because we were talking about it:

My parents TOOK me to a counselor when I was, oh, maybe 12 or 13. But it certainly wasn't anything THEY did. It was SOMETHING WRONG WITH ME that they couldn't figure out. I mean, they really thought something was wrong. I had been acting out because I was the only one in the family who recognized there was something wrong. Everyone else was in deep denial. So while it's a good thing I was able to get some therapy early, it was kind of screwy the way it came about.

03fifteen, I think you're doing well for yourself. You know something is wrong and you're exploring the resources available to you, even if you are facing limitations.

One thing you COULD try -- and I don't know your family, obviously, or know how well it would go over -- is to tell them you'd like to see a counselor because of some difficulties YOU are having. Don't make it about them at all. Just, you know, schoolwork, friends, I've just been feeling sort of down lately and I thought maybe this might help. I have no idea how they'd take it, but it's something to think about. Meanwhile, you know we're always here. Your school counselor might be able to help too. And Dothi is right: This is about YOU, it's YOUR business and under no circumstances are you required to share this with your family.
Hugs hugs hugs.
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Old 09-20-2009, 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted by dothi View Post
These people have an amazing capacity to not acknowledge your pain or discomfort. That doesn't mean these feelings aren't there.
This is so true.

My therapist also pointed this out to me. By going no contact with my family of origin, I have just acted out in the most amazing way, totally out of character for me. I was consumed with my own pain and discomfort. My mother and my brother "could" have chosen to break my boundaries and reach out with love, care and understanding. However, I KNOW these people, my mother will be clutching her broken heart, how could her daughter do this to her. She will be putting me down to her friends, my daughter is mentally ill, she isn't coping well with her son's Autism diagnosis. My brother will just be bitter, here is someone else who has abandonned him. So they are both refusing to acknowledge my pain, choosing instead to feel sorry for themselves.

I have been looking at myself and wondering if I am just as self-centred. However, I seem to be the exact opposite though, in order for the dysfunctional relationship to work I guess. I have learnt not to express my own pain BUT I am HYPER-sensitive to pain in others and run around like a headless chicken trying to FIX the pain. I remained this way until my own pain became too much to bear and I fled. I also didn't like the person I was turning into, I was starting to experience bitterness and resentment and I didn't like it.

Another little bit of insight and awareness, IWTHxxx
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Old 10-03-2009, 09:46 PM
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Today was so hard for me today. I really really had to cry. I finally just broke down and cried when I got to work, I at least clean the bathrooms by myself. So i got some privacy. I haven't had a good cry in a while. And I really needed it. It was hurting me. I don't feel comfortable crying in front of my family, or at home, because I don't have any personal space or privacy. I'm sure it would be fine if I did just cry in front of them. But I'm afraid, afraid of what they might think or say. I worry too much about things like that and then I can't do what I need to do. Like cry when I need to.
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Old 10-19-2009, 09:24 AM
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WOW!!! ok i looked up this stuff too, very interesting.

03fifteen is in a way like i am. my father was an alcoholic (since i was age 7 until he died when i was 20). my family never ever talked about emotions. infact you were looked at as week if you ever cried about anything, depression was just some namby pamby psycho clap trap babble. i remember once i was depressed around the age of 14ish (for no real reason that i know of) my mother was yelling at me "why are you sad? you have no reason to be sad! so tell me what is the matter!" i said "i dont know" *i was crying* my mothers only response was "if you dont know why; then stop! if you cant tell me why i cant help you!"

i have always struggled with depression and always felt horrible for felling that way. i have no reason to feel as i do. when i was in the Navy they gave me prozac (didnt really work but thats what i got lol) i know i need therapy but for now i cant afford that lol.

dont want to be a post thief sorry if i came off that way.

Thanks for posting this was very informative and helpful.
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Old 10-20-2009, 08:43 AM
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Hi iowaings

Glad you are posting with us.

I too have struggled with depression since as I was a child, in fact for as long as I can remember, I have experienced sadness and anxiety. I think this is very, very common in ACOAs.

There's a lot of helpful information in the stickies at the top of this, the Family and Friends and the mental health forums.

Take care of yourself and I hope you get the help you are after soon,
IWTHxxx
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