Originally Posted by SparkyMcSparky

Very interesting thread all, though I admit the science part of it is a bit dry for me. I took physics and astrophysics in University, and although I found it interesting, knowing the amount that "x" gravitational force bends a beam of light wasn't all that personally relevant to myself. However, I did enjoy philosophy, where an intro class was the first time I found out that "Whoah?! You mean that I'm not supposed to blindly accept everything I've been taught, and actually exercise free will, empiricism, and logic in looking at the world?" Although these thoughts were unsettling, and I never managed to reconcile the free-will vs. determininsm argument with Christianity, I had still lived a fairly "Christian" life in the subsequent years. Kids were baptised, oldest was confirmed, fell back on faith when a child was lost, and hung the appropriate iconography around the house. Sought help from God with suspected mental illness and a drinking problem, and in all cases, received the same response. Nada. Now the definition of faith is that it is something you believe in the absence of empirical evidence. In science, these are called theories. In matters of the spirit, these are called religious belief. I have always had belief during my life, but have found this challenged somewhat as I go through the recovery process. Not to say one turns their back on "God" due to a lack of response. However, without a response, one does have a justification in becoming skeptical. And when one is sober, they have both the time and the clarity to contemplate spiritualism. Because, if belief and faith are not sufficient to sustain a path of soberness, how do they make an adequate foundation upon which one can live their life? I do work with some very intelligent people, many of them Christian, and one who has spent time in Bible School. Although not raised to be a skeptic, he does enjoy discussion of these matters, and the last few weeks, we have had some very in-depth discussion regarding Christianity and skepticism. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your belief system), the more research I do, the more I read, and the more I debate, the more I am becoming more secular in thought. For example, when we debate how empirical Christianity is, our discussions always go circular. Although I am given examples of "evidence" and "proof" to support Christianity, these "proofs" are sadly lacking. Why? Because all of the proofs themselves also require faith, as their authenticity is only valid through a lens of belief, not fact. The Bible supports Christianity: The oldest living fragment of a New Testament Bible verse dates to approximately 160 years after Jesus' death. To believe this is the inspired word of God requires a leap of faith. Read a German textbook from 1938 and you'll understand what I mean. Jesus fulfilled thousands of Old Testament prophesies: This tenet is based on the record of a book who's authorship is of question, which itself also requires acts of faith to believe. Adam and Eve, the Great Flood, etc. - the Old Testament itself is completely unverifiable. Any Talmudic scholar could set themselves up to fulfill Old Testament Prophesy. And the New Testament itself is also not independently verified. In other words, the "proof" also requires faith. Regardless, having this discussion with others now means I have a Gideon app on my iPhone, as I still can be saved. And the Christians who are in my life are having difficulty providing me with proof of their belief, exposing it for what it is, well, uh, belief. But they do want me to figure it out before I die and go to Hell. This is not to say that I am now secular or renouncing Christianity. I am also not going to start signing people up for the Deists or Atheists club. Instead, I have forced myself to look critically at my life (which includes the drinking), and am starting to think that if I choose to be a Christian, it is an act of faith, and can be justified in no other way. I have also found more comfort in the concept that this is it, one life, and then nada, versus the torn and conflicted person I had been. Between Biblical parables and the concepts of Heaven and Hell, the "afterlife" is a potentially scary and unknown place. When one already suffers from temporal crises, this can be a source of great stress. Plenty more to say, but this is probably enough for today.