not sure if it helps me understand...let me see if i hear you right: i think the trick then is to have the separation be total between AV and alcoholic mind. is that what you're saying? they're not "from the same place" at all?
and what you guys call "the beast" is yet in another place/realm, separate again from both AV and alcoholic mind?
so i'm totally missing the point of AVRT when i assume the "AV" which i think of in terms i attempted to describe earlier as the knee-jerk-urge is coming from my alcoholic mind. and the reason i'm totally missing that point is because the way you use "alcoholic mind" is only existent, so to speak, if you have the AA-defined alcoholism.
phew, did i get that now?
and if i did get it, then...more unsureness. oh yes, agreed about the value of uncertainty. and the enjoyment of the conversation. thanks.