Hello notforgotten, and pleased to "meet" you
Originally Posted by
notforgotten 
.... With sincere pre-emptive apologies to the faithful, I'd like to also come out as a frustrated & angry agnostic/paralytic. Obviously, it's impossible to even approach supernatural business with any pretence of authority, but to me, the suggestion that some kind of transcendental moral order exists.....
no worries, respectful discourse is always appreciated.
The way I see it there are two separate issues that get tangled up in the concept of a "Higher Power". One is the _religious_ concept, which belongs in religious organizations and is well maintained there. An entirely different issue is the _recovery_ concept, which starts with the awareness that _everything_ I have tried to fix the problems in my life has failed, the acceptance that I need some form of _external_ help to get me out of the mess that I am in, and the willingness to ask for that help.
The recovery concept has nothing to do with the transcendent, or the religious. Some people choose to mix the two different concepts and that works for them. Others choose to keep the separate. That is why the whole business of "as I understood" is such a central tenent of the 12 step programs.
Originally Posted by
notforgotten .... My problem with the idea of a higher self - would love correction.....
Actually, any attempts at "correction" would be in violation of the concept of "as I understood"
So I won't even try. What I see is that recovery is _not_ about a "higher self". My self is fallible enough allready, thank you, I don't need to elevate my fallibility to a higher order. The recovery concept is about a higher _concept_. A concept that sets me as an _equal_ member of a group whereby we all work together for the common good. ( That's a part of the "traditions" of a 12 step program )
Originally Posted by
notforgotten .... The only reasonable argument against determinism is randomness, which doesn't help in a discussion of free will, as we normally understand it. .....
You're heading off into epistemology, and if we take that road we'll eventually wind up at Nietsche and Descartes Discourse on Method. Neither of which will provide a ray of hope to somebody who's loved one is dying from alcoholism. That's the difference between discourses on philosophy and recovery. In recovery we're trying to save people from the horrors of this disease.
But if you _really_ want to get deep into determinism vs. randomness look up "chaos theory" and "local minima". Spruce up your math skills and get ready to give the above two philospheres a run for their money
Originally Posted by
notforgotten .... I guess I'm a kind of fatalist, and a hypocrite, .....
Only if you start with the assumption that the human mind, within it's limitation, really _can_ grasp the fundamental nature of the Universe. See Georg Cantor and Kurt Godel for some thoughts on that matter. If you are willing to accept that the human mind is incapable of such understanding, then you can happily admit to being confused about mutually exclusive realities and go about your life enjoying what is positive.
In any case, getting back to recovery, there are many different ways of surviving addiction, of which the 12 step programs are only _one_. You have to shop around much like you would for a dentist or an auto mechanic. Find one that gives you the results you need and get back to living the life you want.
Mike
