View Single Post
Old 10-03-2009, 03:05 AM
  # 6 (permalink)  
Outvoid
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Bay Area, California
Posts: 61
Originally Posted by stone View Post
He does use logic, yes. If you say God is beyond logic then I do understand the point of view but I could use that argument to believe in anything and say it is beyond question, Santa Claus, fairies, UFO's, invisible orbiting teapots, whatever. if anyone criticises my belief I just say, "you don't understand, my belief is beyond your logical arguments".
Believing in God makes as much sense as believing in the other stuff I mentioned. None. Except it satisfies a psychological need.
Stone, I appreciate your response.

I didn't say, "my belief is beyond logical arguments" - check the post; you put those words in my mouth: a Strawman Argument. In other words, that's your argument, not mine.

Belief is just that: belief. It's not a statement of absolute fact. The most common mistake that many atheists (and theists, for that matter) make is confusing belief with fact. I can't speak for anyone else, but be assured that when I (Outvoid) say that I "believe" in something I am not making a statement of absolute truth or ultimate reality. I am merely making a personal statement of belief.

On to your comment that: "Believing in God makes as much sense as believing in the other stuff I mentioned."

If you were to think that fairies or invisible orbiting teapots were able to help you recover from your addiction, then certainly they would make as much sense as believing in God. That's why we have the concept of a Higher Power - which can be anything. I know people who have the wind as their Higher Power. One guy I know has gravity as his HP.

Belief in God may help your recovery but its doesn't prove God actually exists.
You're completely right. It doesn't prove anything - nor is it trying to. This is another Strawman Argument on your part.

The results are not verifiable, it could just be a placebo effect or another psychologcal mechanism.
Actually, you're wrong. The results are verifiable. What is in question in your argument is the cause of the results. But that is verifiable, too:

Premise: There are millions of people (including myself) who believe that a supernatural being they call God exists. - This is a fact.

Premise: There are millions of people who have such beliefs who are achieving sobriety in 12-step recovery programs. - This is a fact.

Now, you can certainly argue that "God" doesn't exist and that these people are deluding themselves. But even if they (and myself) are, the system still works. I choose to believe that it comes from God. You apparently choose to believe it comes from the mind.

Ultimately, though, as long as people are getting recovery, it doesn't really matter which one of us is right.

--Outvoid--
Outvoid is offline