Originally Posted by
irishmalcolm 
Hi Katie09,
You can listen to Jimmy "the atheist" talking on The AA Primary Purpose Website (I can't post a link yet, but google will bring it up). It is also written about in the book "AA Comes Of Age". I know he moved to philidelphia because in 1942 because he sponsored a man called Connor F, who founded the first AA meetings in Ireland and who sponsored my my Sponsor (who is sober 38 years, Conor had over 40 years sobriety when he died.) Bill W writes about Conor on in "AA comes of Age".
As for the Orange papers, there is much good info on there but the fact is, he constantly refers to the "12 steps that summarize the program" (BB. P.xxii) and has nothing to say about the program which is laid out in the BB up to p 164.
His attack on other peoples spiritual beliefs are very childish. There is no instruction in the Big Book that a door knob or toilet can be your higher power (although in the belief systems commonly called Animism that is technically possible) is the basis of much ridicule. His contention that AA is a cult, akin to Scientology, holds no water in my opinion. AA costs me nothing, no one (not even my sponsor) tells me what to do. His lack of knowledge of the 12 Traditions and the 12 Concepts leave a gapping hole. His use of the book "The 12 Steps and 12 Traditions" is taken out of the context explained clearly in the introduction, that it is an explicit, individual opinion (of Bill Wilson) and only represents Bills view (Dr. Bob did not want the book published). There is a lot in his site that sows much confusion. Then there is much that is just opinion presented as fact, when he leaves out a great deal of information, not published by AA, which seems sadly amiss from his bookshelf. But there is some important information regarding the failings of the service structure, but then they are not AA, just some people who chose to ignore the 12 Concepts. I wouldn't mind anyone I sponsor delving deep into what his site has to offer, because I know from personal experience he does not publish any letters that will confront or dispel his entrenched views. Just letters from angry, or misguided members who feel threatened by his site.
The Lifering book, which I received from their man in Europe (who lives in Cork) is a very good resource for those seeking an alternative to AA. I have never been to a lifering meeting (there are none here) but I did try their chat room meetings, which tend towards attacking AA a lot. I still say if it works for you, then it works for you. There has always been societies dedicated to helping the suffering alcoholics. Before AA their was The Washingtonians, The Emmanual Society, The Jacoby Club, The Matt Talbot Wagon Wheel society and the Salvation Army and Oxfords Groups who had it as part of their mission. And their are now alternatives available who are readily accesible even for a guy living in the irish countryside.
Love and Peace to all
Malcolm
Thank you so much, Malcolm, for taking the time to write your post to me.
I envy you in that I do believe you haven't been tarnished by the machine that AA has become. I have never met more wonderful people in my life than in AA, but AA has become a machine. Perhaps this is the natural evolution of any movement. I don't know.
There is much value in the Big Book. I've quizzed a friend of mine in the U.S. on the rules and regulations. To the best of his knowledge (and he started in 1964) there was never a requirement for labels or sponsors. He has told me not to forget the wisdom of the Big Book. Still, all of it is so intertwined in my mind I can't get past things.
And thank you for your open mindedness about the Orange Papers. I do think that A. Orange is doing his best in his own way to help the recovery movement at large. Oh, and btw, love LifeRing here, although there are no meetings in my town. I'm almost tempted to move back to the area from whence they came.
From across the big pond,
Katie