In Limbo...

[DolphinBlue]

Hi all,

well, I am quite disillusioned with AA at the moment. (to those who are likely to be offended, I would stop reading about now!) There are some meetings I have found which are comfortable for me, but basically I have been miserable lately and I wonder if I just had too much of it all.

I am not sure that constantly taking a 'searching a fearless moral inventory' of myself is actually helpful. Maybe for someone who victimises people, maybe not for the sufferer. Then I know it's no use admitting this to many members as I will be told its because I haven't done the steps, that I am a dry drunk and that I should shut up, listen and stop analysing everything (oh and to not trust my thinking at all because the best it ever did was get me into AA).

So, I will keep going but its clear to me I will not be able to share for a while. Which is good actually because frankly being little more than a reminder to older members of why they want to remain sober and basically giving predators a road map to my mind is embarassing, not to mention dangerous. Besides, I never felt I could tell the truth and even started using the terminology.

Don't want to be disillusioned, as I know many are trying to help and that it seems to work for them. Just in a confused state at the moment.

I am really keen to hear of any personal stories concerning this.

Thanks

DolphinBlue

[Peacefulpie]

((((((DB)))))))

I hear you... Your frustration.... Well to be honest is right on time as I have been following your progress I can see how the thought of "always" takeing a moral inventory could be scary.
Especially when you have yet to work the first 3 steps .
It isnt about always looking for the bad within ourselves... No it is about honesty(1) Faith(2) surrender(3)soul searching(4)Integrity(5)Acceptance (6)Humility(7)willingness(8)forgiviness(9)maintena nce(10)making contact(11)service(12).

Dont fool yourself into believeing that you dont have resentments.. This is what I hear when you state "

Maybe for someone who victimises people, maybe not for the sufferer.

yes you are the sufferer however can you honestly say that you have developed no resentments at all through your addiction? I have learned through my recovery that Indeference is a not so subtle form of hate or at least contempt.

No you may not be ready to share this with others in meetings especially what was it you called them..."Predators"

My suggestion to you is slow down... you are projecting on things you have yet to learn. Keep it simple, in time as you grow you will
find the serenity you deserve and desire. Recovery is a process, Not an event. More shall always be revealed....


I wish you a slow recovery. A process of growth, serenity,joy and peace.

[Ann]

Dolphinblue

I think it is admirable that you are still trying, even when you feel this way. Sometimes if we don't feel like participating, we can just sit quietly and listen. You might be surprised to hear exactly what you need to hear.

Also, there is no time test on working the steps. Step 1 is probably what got you there, and there is no reason to feel pressured to move on until you feel ready.

If you can, try some different groups. Some groups are more inspiring than others, and there is no harm in trying a variety of meetings to see which ones best suit you.

And lastly, there is no need to fake your feelings. Just tell the truth and let the chips fall where they may.

I love my 12-step meeting, and I took no offence at your post. I hope you will find something that works well for you.

[DolphinBlue]

...thanks for your replies. I had a bad case of tunnel-vision.

I am just going to clear up a few things here. I don't believe I have never victimised another person - quite the opposite. Sometimes it eats away at me, but I'm working on it. My 'easy way' is feeling like a victim - but I know it reeks of really basic stuff, defensive patterns I learned, after I am over it.

It amazes me that I can so easily slip into old thought patterns and feel totally justified. I get the feeling I'd better get used to it.

And yes, whenever I think I know what people are getting at, I probably don't and this is when I hear what I most need to.

I don't want to get to the point where I don't listen anymore, that would be missing the point entirely. I have gotten so much out of listening so far, even though at times it's been uncomfortable for me. If I stopped this, I would just be carrying around resentments and misguided beliefs which hasn't worked so far. I don't want to be someone who thinks that theres any merit in judging someone else's belief system if it clearly works for them. I don't want to stop learning.

Going to find/stick with some good meetings. I will just listen for a while but more importantly, I feel now that I will do it with more a open mind and more acceptance (but yes I will get carried away again, probably many times).

This little episode has really been quite good for me in lots of ways. I feel I have more direction now, that I can start to feel comfortable about being me without feeling the need to take everything on and getting angry when it doesn't work. I said 'start' didn't say anything about not this again lol. Also, I am really beginning to understand that I have a long way to go and that's ok. I prefer to listen anyway, for now

Thanks for helping to remind me.

DolphinBlue

PS. It would be nice to get out of me, me, me (the neediness part)...its exhausting!

[Stephanie]

Hi DB,

I know how you feel. I had a hard time with the fact that I didn't know what was best for me and that I kept getting told that my best thinking got me to AA. It's frustrating because my whole life before was centered around me knowing what's best. The goal of all this will become clear to you if you trust the process. Mostly you're just getting a little ego deflation from some of the info your receiving. Ego deflation is in no way a bad thing, on the contrary....it's what we need to learn to be humble and remain teachable which are the most important characteristics in learning to have a relationship with a higher power. You're doing great and you're right where you're suppose to be.

[DolphinBlue]

the ego deflation I mean. You're right I need it. In fact, the more I read this thread, the more I realise that you all made points I hadn't thought of which help me a lot.

"The goal of all this will become clear to you if you trust the process." this worries me a little...but I am getting better at trust.

Thank you.

DolphinBlue

[Wendy]

Remember to take good care of yourself during this time. Do something fun for you, hang out in a bookstore, take a hot bath, anything that you enjoy. I know personally how hard it is to get out of your head sometimes but I think you'll do wonderful!

Take care!

Hugs,

Wendy

[JT]

Dolphin,

When I started out in Alanon I was told to only read conference approved literature. Not a bad thing, don't get me wrong. I go back again and again to the basics.

Sometimes tho, if I pick up a new book that mirrors the program, or read some of the "Great Thinkers" and something they say sounds just like the program I get excited all over again.

I was guilty at one time of not trusting that it works. A cult perhaps?? I had to prove to myself I guess that this program is really a way of living our lives simply and honestly.

You don't have to always share. This program after all is about you and it is not a straight road to the end. There are many stops and starts and even reverses, but the path does move forward.

Hugs,
JT

[DolphinBlue]

Wendy...thanks good point I forget these most simple, important things at times

Just Tired...I thought I had to constantly push 'to get out of my comfort zone' of course I was crammed full of info and picked the least applicable to fret about, out of fear.

Other times, I really do need to push a little...like making myself read the literature. Surely I am not the only one who feels incredibly bored at even the thought of this. I have problems with all the ego in it. Well, that says a lot about me doesn't it?

Thank you both

DolphinBlue

[myles1]

No Dolphinblue you aren't the only one who has ever felt incredibly bored by all this and you won't be the last. Sometimes recovery is fits and starts and then all of a sudden we'r eright side up again going along.

After awhile taking an inventory of yourself will become a welcome it helps keep our slates clean and increases our humbleness and self-esteem.

Ngaire

[tigergirl]

Funny you mention this. I do not wish to cause any trouble or misunderstandings; I respect that AA has gotten me sober, I'm working on the steps with someone I trust, use the tools. I'm on the third step at the moment, using a book which actually asks me relevant questions because I always need to go deeper..ya know? It's great.

The 4th scares me a bit,no a lot because like you said, why do I have to tear myself down again? I already do it everyday? Where's the empowerment? I think after lots of searching, it's the fact that my old beliefs keep my mind unhealthy-in the same rut of delusions and negative thought patterns. I'm a bad person etc because I did this etc. It's only when I purge this once and for all, that I will get to the self acceptance. Am I making sense?Do I sound like a preacher? See what I mean?

He was right in the end"I'm ok,you're ok and it's okay"

Take care,
Tiger

[zoomer]

D-blue I'm going to tell you strait up and I will get people mad at me,but it will not be the first time. AA is an Acult. It is and will always be your dission to join. You are not doing anything wrong by questioning everything,it normal, it's human, it' right! The program actually "programs you like a robot",it's like yor being brainwashed, wait it is being brained washed!!! If you are questioning things, then your not fully brainwashed yet. OK, here it is. The AA was made up by a guy named Bill,he got followers,now it's turned into a huge accult affectning not only people,but the whole court system and they even now have govenment angencies folling it's way. When I first went in "the program and the rehab" I was told I was and us as agroup were part of a sientific exsperiment. I don't lie DB,that is what was told. So people are actually messing around still in learning human behavior. On the flip side the 12 step programs have accutualy giving people a way to live and be productive when otherwize, they would be criminals or strung out on dope or drinking. Never let anyone tell you you are wrong to think, feel an be leary of joining an accult. It's is unfortunate that it is a money making sceem for some. I miss the fellowship the 12 steps has offered. I don't miss someone telling me I'm wronge to feel the way I do and that I'm not working the steps. It's the blind leading the blind and I refuse now to have someone who does not have any real training in medicin or psycriatric trainig tell me I'm not working as hard as I can on something non of us understand. I personally think you are digging too deep and need to take a break and maybe read a book not pertaining to any 12 steps to give yourself a chance to let your mind rest. Ofcouse I'm no exspert,so you don't have to listion to me! And yes, it's OK to feel hurt and if you are a victom,it's OK to say this sucks an dam it I'm pissed and not turn it around on what you did! I hate the saying "no one can take advantage of you unless you let them". It's like saying your God and yo can contol everyone. I don't dispute the 12 steps work for some and it give you a focus other than the thought of going out and partying. So, I gave you my thoughts,my real thoughts,but then again I may be wrong about everything.
Zoomer

[DolphinBlue]

Hi Zoomer,

thanks for your honesty.

I can say that I have noticed many things in AA that are consistant with cult practices. So I questioned it all and found so many holes in it, one after another so that I was beyond any doubt that I was being brainwashed. This is what scared me so much. It was suddenly just right in front of my face and I thought "Thank God I didn't let it go too far" but I don't think that's the answer either. My mind loves to be dramatic sometimes and it's never gotten me very far.

I realised, if looked at in a certain way, AA contains a strong message of growth. I have seen this message in many other teachings of 'thinkers' before and believe it works. It makes sense to me. If I can just sift through the crap, it might work for me too.

When I weighed the pros and cons, I realised that it would cost me more to assume I could not learn anything here. Don't get me wrong, the costs of sticking around are high. I am vulnerable and although 'on guard' attitudes can creep into my head in a subtle way, especially when I am fearful. There are so many things about AA that would normally be big red flags for me. But, the rewards of being able to listen, choose what I take on, learning to think for myself, resist temptation to idolise and hang on every damn word and along the way make friends I can trust and develop tools to cope with everyday life in a constructive way are things I hope to accomplish. I will pay by making mistakes and could possibly find its not for me at all, or worse I could become something I am not (serenity sometimes = numbness to me, I want to FEEL and work through stuff, not hand it over to something ie. deny it exists) but I feel I need to try.

What still scares me is being told its imperative that I trust someone else and a higher power. Even if it goes against my instincts, no matter what, no questions. Thats just plain creepy in anyone's language isn't it? Once I decide to do this, I have to follow it through and who knows where/who I will end up? This is the fear I need to conquer. Major crossroads stuff for me.

All of this has left me isolating at the moment, which scares me a little, but as you say its time to start doing non-AA things as well.

Thanks, I needed to at least acknowledge that all of this is going on inside me. These are just my thoughts. I, too may be wrong about everything.

DolphinBlue

[zoomer]

Hey D-blue, I'm not against AA at all,nor am I against anything that floats people's boats,but if I do not agree, I'm not wrong in my thinking, nor am I in denile. I love the fellowship of belonging to something, and so do most people,but hey if an acult to me to drop a pill for mass murder, no way. That is why I am careful now in my exsploration of jumping into anything. hell I went in with both feet a long time ago and wish I did not or at least knew about somethings I know now. And I will never let another human being tell me I not working hard enough or not giving up my will to them that I'm a bad person. I feel that when you give up your will to god,you are giving yourself free will to think. I mean do you think God actually wants you to be perfect? I have learned a lot from the 12 step program,but most of all iv learned not to trust so much. if that makes sence to you. I'm takingmy time if I want to go to a meeting, and my other 2 sponcers long ago where not all there either,so I ay just be on my own. I do love this site because in the WIR forum, you can ask questions say how you feel. Although, it's scarry to think people can actually read your stuff. i mean that one woman wanted to report live to someone for something she said! Scarry stuff!
Zoomer

[DolphinBlue]

Zoomer,

you make sense to me. I feel its ok that we don't all agree, in fact I would be worried if we did. I think I can understand where you are on handing your will over as its very similar to my view, although I know I don't have the same background as you have. I generally don't trust experimental ideas either, especially if they are delivered in absolutes.

I understand that as long as people are saying what they really think, someone is going to get offended. I get offended by some posts, and I know that these are issues I need to look at. I don't mean any harm.

At the moment, I feel ok about writing this stuff. I have no idea how I will feel later.

Ok I'm purged

DolphinBlue

[Stephanie]

Hi Dolphin blue,

I would guess that most addicts and alcoholics that have attended AA have questioned it. Actually it's the nature of an addict/alcoholic to question anything that has an air of authority to it. We are rebels in a way because in our using we went against what society deems as the norm.

I wasn't going to reply to this thread until I read one part of your post that said the thing you find most uncomfortable is that you are told to trust in something else other than yourself like a higher power and you called that just plain creepy. I also felt that that part of the program was not for me because I didn't even know if I believed in god. To me, the purpose of the 12 steps is to introduce us to spirituality in some way. I believe when a person uses drugs and alcohol they are the furthest from god that they can get other than committing a crime against someone else. The program teaches us step by step how to be a good person and live a useful more productive life. When I was using, I thought I knew it all, sometimes I still do and it is a daily reprieve for me to learn that I don't have all the answers. Read some of the posts on the Alanon boards. The characteristics of the addict in these peoples lives are the same. I am living with one and I still can't believe I was like him. Without recovery addicts can be know it alls, they know what's best for them and everyone else. We also think we know what we're doing and we know how to handle our addiction, we also think we're only hurting ourselves, and we blame everything on everyone but ourselves and our addiction. The program teaches us to trust something other than ourselves because our way didn't work and if we trust in a higher power we learn about humility and how to remain teacheable. You know what, I didn't buy it either so I did it my way, I relapsed and continued to screw up until I surrendered and decided to listen to someone Else's way. That's all it is. The principals of AA have kept millions of people from picking up a drink because they are spiritual in nature. When I say someone elses way I mean the principals of the program not what some misguided people may be preaching. Find a sponsor that you identify with. There are always going to be some weirdos out there but take what you need and leave the rest.

One of the sayings I like best is Principals before personalities. The principals of the program are not cultist but some members can make it that way and I have seen it first hand. Don't forget we are dealing with addicts. They say addicts are ego maniacs with an inferiority complex. Nothing changes if nothing changes. There's sick people in the rooms, there's no doubt. Hopefully we use our better judgment and attend meetings where we don't see this kind of guru behavior. I would just hate to see you give up on AA just because a few people are using it to stroke their ego.

[zoomer]

WhewI'm glad you had the words to say that I could not. I too think that it should be a fellow ship of people "helping" people, not policing them. And as church and state, I feel that they should not mix. I feel too many people are getting rich off the poor souls who want to help themselves. I don'thave a problem with exsperts,but do have a problem with people thinking they are exsperts because they follow a accult or any religion that harms. It's not the program it is what is beng done to it by people and it's forced now by the state. I don't have to do a thing if I don't want to,it's my choice. I also find nothing wrong with looking at what was done to you nd feel the pain of it,only then can you act in a way thatis for the betterment. I sometimes think that te program is being used as a bandaid, and not a cure for those who suffer great wounds. All religions and accults are based on brother hood that produces sprituality. Nothing wrong with that,but who is to say what brothe hoodis better than the other. That's when wars start.
Zoomer

[DolphinBlue]

There are so many good points made here I won't bother going over them all and anyway I probably haven't got them yet anyway...I'll read again when I'm not so exhausted but I do appreciate the help.

I have a better perspective now. I spoke to my sponsor who made me realise I can make a choice as to which way I think would make me stay sober - can you believe I didn't even think of this? I thought I was the victim of my own thinking. That "it" would dictate my life. I stalled, became miserable and stayed there because it's all I know sometimes and at least its familiar. My intellectualising might have sounded reasonable and felt comfortable to me at the time, but it doesn't work. I sure don't feel sober as a result. So now I'm trying again. Its all different now but thats ok.

She suggested I make a huge sign to go on my wall "Lighten Up" sounds like fun actually. Could be useful too.

Thank you all.

DolphinBlue

[Stephanie]

LOL

You sound just like me. I wanted to read the whole big book and work all the steps in rehab. I complicate everything. But it really is a simple program. I know everyone says that you WORK the program but what I found was that if I kept doing the next right thing by showing up at meetings, try to be of service, talk to a sponsor, and don't pick up......the program worked me.

I came to believe that I would be restored to sanity when I tried it every other way possible and then finally surrendered. I turned things over when there was no where else for it to go. It happens over time but there is one requirement. You have to stick around. There's a saying....I know I'm full of cliches tonight but I do love this one.

Don't give up before the miracle happens.

[DolphinBlue]

Yes well that's where I am...its definitely working ME

The only comfort I felt I had was that I had some understanding from others, willingness and knowledge that this step is a process. Which is awesome really, but just not good enough for my inner 'critic'. I don't even like most critics, I think they're boring lol pure insanity for sure.

Thanks again

DolphinBlue