A question aboutr the "love' word

[dax]

My husband has 26 years of sobriety. 5 years ago I discovered he had a long time affair with a woman also in the program. Now against all the rules I know, he sponsored some women and was just friends with a lot. This is not a wandering type man -really. The affair was a friendship rtha tgot out of control- woman also bi polar and wild. The question I have. Does everyone in the program sign all their cards and emails to friends of the opposite sex - "love.' I have found so many of his emails and birthday cards signed this way . "Love Ya" would to me be a far as I think this should go. So much hugging too- As A wife o f a recovering alocholic I find this offensive. what are you views. A woman he used to sponsor but does no longer has moved back to town. She seems very honest. In fact I am set up tp take care of her dogs if needed. But I am uneasy. dax

[GettingFree]

Your senses are worth listening to. Your senses seem to be saying that your husband is demonstrating poor boundaries towards other women. A full-blown affair, while among the worst, is hardly the only way that our trust and commitment to our spouse or significant other is betrayed.

Showing undo attention, saying inappropriate things, having extended contact...all these are signs of poor boundaries that can be part of love and/or sex addiction. They tend to be part of a personality that is dependent on attention and approval from others (aka the opposite gender)in order to gain value and esteem.

If this is true with your husband, it is important to know that it is about him, not about you. In other words, it is about his own difficulty seeing himself as adequate, not about you being inadequate. It has nothing to do with you not being 'enough' to keep his attention solely on you.

For you, it will be important to establish what your boundaries are -- to know what your values are, what behaviour is appropriate, and what you are willing to accept in order to feel safe in your commitment and to feel you are respected as a spouse and partner.

I'd also watch out for rationalizations that devalue ourselves and allow us to accept less than we deserve: you say he had a long-time affair with another woman and then you say he is not a wandering type man. What is a wandering type man then?

best,
GF

[dax]

Well I put that wrong. Yes he is a wandering Ass@@@@. What Imeant to say that he is not a multipe wanderer. I do not think he ever cheatesd when drinking. If fact he addmitted he felt he has missed something because I was his first and only until her. What can I say- he is a jerk but I love him At age 60 I think it would be more stressful to divorce. . Plus he is trying to make amends. Trouble is there is not enough he can ever to to make it right. I am living with someone I will nver trustr But I would never trust any man after this. If he can cheat, any one one can. Numerous friends could not believe he had cheated.. I have set boundaries that[AS FAR AS I KNOW] he has kept. Because he is an alcoholic there is a twist. he must go to meeting s and I know this. What I am asking is how many of you women just sign 'love' to most of your cards and emails to just good friends?And I never felt it was about me. He likes the feeling that these women giv e thim by needing his 'sharing' [puke]. My counselor'also in AA, says the people in the program thinka little too highly Of My H. dax

[CarrieSueBee]

Dax,
See if he can attend a "mens stag" meeting instead. Search for one and offer it to him. Then listen to the "why's" ......of why he is willing to or why he won't go.

My boyfriend wandered once, though only to a strip club. But to me that was cheating. Anyway the counselor told me that I had to decide to either forgive him, or not. See, I wanted to punish him forever for how hurt I felt. You must decide, forgive or never forgive.
In order to continue a marital relationship, you MUST be able to trust him. He violated the trust you had, so you are now in the driver's seat. You get to know where he is and who he is with ALL the time. That rule can be in place until you grow to trust him again.
There are RULES about sponsorship.
AA meetings should make a spouse feel better - that finally their significant other is getting help. It should not be a place for him to meet swinging singles and allow himself to indulge.
I understand the Alcoholic's bonds to each other are strong and meaningful. But I agree with Green's assessment, that there is a boundry problem. Have you tried Al-Anon? Maybe there is a way you can grow to understand the program, what it is and what it ISN'T. I'd encourage both of you to pray about adherance to the rules - men sponsor men and women sponsor women. period.

[CarrieSueBee]

PS,
I wouldn't be too worried about the "love" on cards. I would give most people the benefit of the doubt with that...it should be more like a friendship type of love or a mom-child or a dad-child (sponsor) type of love. His ex-affair gal should refrain from all contact. She went where no woman ought to go (into another's marriage), and she needs to back all the way off.
Hugs are a more difficult issue. I understand your sensitivity. Group hugs seem OK. man-man hugs would be OK. But see if he understands the purpose of the woman-man hug.
Long lingering hugs are out of the quesiton. I might be OK with the quick hug - more like that of a brother and sister. Hugs are good to make people feel accepted, and worthwhile. At my first meeting, I was crying my eyes out and a man came and hugged me, but it was a comforting thing...not a "hey, lets make out" kind of thing. I guess it all depends on the feelings behind the hugs. Good luck. Pray a lot.

[dax]

I have gone to alanon for 25 years -on and off. Iam off now probaly forev er. I lisened- let go and let God and said 'Go to as many meertings as you need. at one time =up to 5 years ago- he was giong to meetings 3 nights during the week and meetings all weekend. addiction to the program and the ho. The meeting just make me angry now so I don't go. I know each meerting he goes to now and and he never goes out after meetings. I also know her mini van and check if out on pet sits at the meetings. I can and will live with a man I will nev er trust. I have decided i can never foergive. Sex with woman for several years- unapprobriate relatrionship for 9. too long. My decision is to stay. August is always a bad month - the 5th and 6th his and her AA birthday. I am pass the shock and am enjoying life again. dax

[CarrieSueBee]

Wow Dax -
I sure feel your pain. I wish there was more I could do for you. I'll think positive thoughts. Best wishes,

[Chy]

Hi dax!
Sorry this makes you uncomfortable, but in my circle of friends in recovery, we all sign off love ya, love you, hugs. For some of us it's the first time we've ever been told! So please know it's the norm for most in recovery and I do understand. The first time a man said " love you Chy" from my fellowship, I was a bit floored. I thought whoa buddy! But I came to quickly realize, it's normal, and part of the fellowship experiance. When you get to know people in recovery, it's a different bond then most friendships. I hope you'll remain open minded.

[Greenbird]

Hello, I am still trying to recover today. But, I know from experience a man should not sponsor a woman. Any time a man has such a close relationship with a woman like that a feeling develops. It is not always the man's fault. Women sometimes have the wrong agenda in mind. I was always taught this was 13 stepping.

Whats up with him? Is he trying to be a big shot in AA they talk about this all the time!!!!!!!!!!

[bubblze30]

I always live by one simple rule when it comes down to my man and other women, If I have a gut feeling soething is not right, it usually isn't. I can talk myself out of it but in the long run my gut always leads me in the right direction. If you feel uncomfortable with it bring it up to him. Communication is a very strong part of recovery. Don't keep it all bottled up inside. Yes, I too have friends I type luv ya at the end even other females, but if you are having doubts and these feelings the only way is to ask. if you still feel he is hiding something i would look into it more. No one person deserves to be lied to or cheated on. Hope things work out for you and I pray that your gut is wrong but when my gut says something I listen. A lesson I learned many,many years ago.

[dax]

Chy- Yes it is a different bond than most friendships and when you are on the outside looking in,it can be hurtful. I cannot share the feeling of being addicted to anything because I am not. I think it is easier to step over the line in these circumstances. The' love ya' doesn't bother me. Straight' love' and 'I love You' from the one he used to sponsor seems a bit much. Even though she has respected my request to have no contact at the time and I am sure nothing is going on. Since I am from Houston, I thought this might be more a Southern thing. There is too much touching going in the meetings I have attended..from a spouse's point of view. My councelor who is in AA says there is way too much unacceptable behavior -especially at the closed clubs. She thinks all meetings should be men only- women only.I was surprised at the time to hear it. Now I am not. dax

[Chy]

Originally Posted by dax

My councelor who is in AA says there is way too much unacceptable behavior -especially at the closed clubs. She thinks all meetings should be men only- women only.I was surprised at the time to hear it. Now I am not. dax

Well hopefully she doesn't share that with to many as it's just not true, no more, no less then the real world. She has her right to her own opinion, but I'm gonna say, it's just not so, and mixed meetings are an important part to recovery. I resent the idea she's given you the perception that closed meetings (clubs) are more than just learning to stay sober and getting and giving support sounds like you feel AA is a bit on the seedy side and the cause for your husbands roving. I could be wrong, but that's what I interpretted you meant, and that infuriates me!

[dax]

Well It might make you mad but that is what she said about one particular well known club in Houston. There is no reason for her to lie about it. She was doing her best to save our marriage. She also said she had several couples going through the same thing. - cheating in AA. That by the very nature of the closness of sharing, an affair was ripe to happen.. That does not mean it goes on in all closed clubs. This is a very good caring counselor. We have sent several people to her including some in AA. When we first used her when our teenage daughter was giving us trouble, she was not even in the program. Since they even have a name for it-13th stepping' it happens. Newly sober women get hit on a lot Just say the sererity prayer and let it go. No program is perfect. dax

[Chy]

Wow, is all I can say. I know all about 13 stepping. I guess where I am it's just not that prevelant, when it does occur, the senior men take care of the men and women take care of the women. I guess the problem I have is the iimplecation this is the "norm". Again, it's not so, I mean it just happened to your family while in AA, but it goes on in schools, churches, grocery stores, everywhere!

I'm glad you have someone to council you can trust, but just a thought, the number one rule in counseling, is to not give advice, and divulge little of yourself as the counselor.... hmmmmmm...

[CarrieSueBee]

Dax-
My meetings are all co-ed, and I was only hugged once - at my FIRST meeting.

After that, the only touching that goes on is a group hand holding to say the Lords Prayer at the end of the meeting. Otherwise, we sit in the seedy chairs, drink our yuckky coffee and try to concentrate on staying sober in light of the VERBAL sharing at that meeting. NO hugs, no touching...and I've never even heard people say "I love ya man."
I may insult Chy... But...Maybe that one group (just that one group) is off track. If so, why does your husband insist on going there???? I'd think Houston would have LOTS of other meetings. Even if it is his "home" group, maybe he sould consider moving on.
And one thing doesn't makes sense. The cheater woman was supposed to have no contact with your husband, but then how do you know she signs cards with "love"? Sounds like she violated your rule again and made contact.

[GettingFree]

[quote=dax]What can I say- he is a jerk but I love him At age 60 I think it would be more stressful to divorce. . Plus he is trying to make amends. Trouble is there is not enough he can ever to to make it right. I am living with someone I will nver trust.

Im not sure if it helps to know that women aged 30 have said exactly the same thing as you have dex. The reason we remain in relationships with people who have betrayed us are deep and complex, but rarely have to do with age. In other words the fear you have about leaving can be just as intense when you were younger.

I have a lifetime of this behind me it seems, and only recently after ending a long-term common-law marriage, have I said that I deserve a healthy, loving relationship based on respect and trust. And to live continually inside the walls of a lack of trust was too painful and soul-diminishing. As I come to value myself more, as well as my values in life, I realize that compromise of this sort -- continuing to live with a lack of trust and the memory of betrayal -- isn't the kind of compromise that we regard as positive flexibility. Rather it's disrepecting myself, devaluing myself, telling myself I don't deserve more. Now at 49, I'm now looking at life so very differently. And am so much happier.

I'm not judging in any way. It took me so long to get to this point. I wish you clarity,

GF

[dax]

To answer all questions. My husband has not had contact with the affair related woman probaly for 4.5 years.Of course I know she she called him dearest darling and much more. Broke into his office v oice mail when it was going on and got an ear full. I knew nothing about computers but my son taughtr me a lot very fast. He had much on it about and for her including a map to her house for her super Bowl parties and othe AA functions. He is stupid frankly. I found a hidden file just this year with a letter he wrote but never sent confirming they had sex[he would not admit it for the 5 years I have known and a trip to Gatlinberg. [PUKE} What I am talking abourt now is a hidden email account- nothing major- just a lot of friendly AA chatter with the 'love' word used a lot.
As far as staying witrh someone I don't trust. At age 60 I have too much to lose. I need my acre of land for my horses. I can't move further out because I am a pet sitter and all my customers are near my present home. Also my health insurance is thru him. Plus at present I am finally being treated great. I have gone through hell , am finally on the road to recovery. I want to spend my later years having fun, not dividing property. Thank you all for you feedback
On the meeting he attends. He does not go to his favorite meeting 0n Sat afternoon because she went there. the meetings he goes to are close andI can check on him at any time. He can not go out after meetings with anyone. dax

[Chy]

Originally Posted by CarrieSueBee

Dax-
I may insult Chy... But...Maybe that one group (just that one group) is off track. .

Insult me? No way! I just remember some are sicker than others, and sadly, it's true, some fellowships forget the principles. Not often, but it happens.

[GettingFree]

Dax,

It sounds like you've come to some agreement in your mind about what there is to lose. I understand. I wonder if you've done the same thing about what you may have to gain. Again, I am not judging -- i have a lot of compassion, but am just trying to ask some questions that may be difficult, but are worth asking. I didn't want to ask them for a long time. I resisted, avoided, minimized, rationalized.

Every woman in your situation has made similar tallies, including tallies based on much less concrete assets, such as children and the fear of tearing apart a family. Of course, the concrete things aren't unimportant in any way either.

I would suggest that 60 isn't old at all. I'd also suggest -- just suggest -- you may want to read a bit about co-dependency and sex/love addiction. There are some great books out there.

Also, there's a site or two that you may want to visit. One is understandingsexualaddiciton.org
It has a partner forum where a lot of these issues are discussed -- betrayal, trust, etc. Some partners are working through these things with their partners who are in recovery for their addictions, some are chosing to leave.

There's also a great site on codependency, with meetings,and message boards: http://groups.msn.com/CodependentsAn..._whatsnew.msnw

best,
GF

[dax]

GF- I appreciate your concern,but I have made my decision for now. I have gone though 5 years of fighting, counseling, soul searching and have come to my decision. We have been married 39 years. He is treating me great and I am feeling more secure all the time. For better or worse , he really is my best friend. The program as well as the other woman stole a lot of our time together. Now that he goes to a lot fewer meetings, we talk and laugh together a lot. he is my best friend again.
I do not think this man is a sex addict. I think addicted people tend to think along these lines. What he is guilty of is thinking he is God's gift to women on the subject of recovery. I asked him once why he was sponsoring this certain woman. He said because other women couldn't give her as good recovery/[eyes rollong here]. This s woman had a slip and told me she was doing it right this time and gertting a woman counselor.
A interesting thing. In the letter I found when he was whinning about her treatment of him, he was complaining that she resented his ridgid meeting schedule. I never complained about it. I would have thought people in the program would have been more understanding. He said she was too controling; I was not The thing he liked about me most enabled him to cheat.Live and learn. dax

[Chy]

I'm glad he treats you well and you've been able to resolve this within yourself! Your never to old to learn dax! *hugs*

[GettingFree]

Dax, sorry if I was sounding heavy-handed. 39 years means you have a huge amount invested, emotionally and every other way. I don’t blame you one bit for your decision, and I’m so glad things feel better than they did five years ago.
Also, I didn’t mean in any way to label your husband a sex addict – labels can be really misleading. He does sound like he has boundary issues though that you haven’t totally addressed as a couple in terms of respect for you, for the relationship, and perhaps, most important for him, for himself i.e. how he gets his own needs for validation met. I guess it’s my own buttons that get pushed, when I hear someone say “I can never trust him again.”

[dax]

GF- What are the boundary issues I haven't addressed? Lord this man has to account for every place he goes and where he has been and with whom. dax

[Paulie]

Hi dax -

I have been reading this thread and I feel for you, I am sorry for the pain that you have gone through.

What I want to say is if you have come to terms with what happened, made the decsion to stay, then what I wish for you is that you work on letting go of it, letting go of the anger and resentment. Resentments hurt us, not the people we resent. Having to live in a situation where my spouse has to account to me everymove that he makes would wear the heck out of me.

Instead of trying to understand why program people use the word love or why something happened, why not try and work on yourself, and acceptance of the decsion that you have made. I understand what you are saying, you are at a certain age and it is easier to stay then go, so accept that and move on. for your own sake, for your own health because all this eatting away at you is not healthy at all.

God Bless.