Question about recovery... long (sorry!)

[naturelover]

I have been here for a long time. I rarely post… mostly read a little bit every now and then.

I came back to look up info about liver issues and got to reading a lot more than I had in the past. I quit drinking quite a while ago… sometime last year (I don’t count days). I more or less left SR because there was one particular guy that kept telling me that my “way” was wrong, that I would fail, that I was kidding myself if I thought I could do it without AA… blah, blah, blah. I think he might be gone now, but figured he wouldn’t venture into the women’s recovery room if he isn’t. I don’t need any negativity, even thought I don’t think it would threaten my sobriety.

I have some questions about recovery. I know that most everyone thinks that if you are not “working a program” (that “program” mostly being AA), then you are a dry drunk. I have tried and tried to reconcile my thoughts with AA, thinking that I am missing something, but I can’t. When I was drinking, prior to drinking and since drinking I’ve never had emotional issues. Oh, during that time of the month I always get a little irritable, but nothing different than it has been for the 20 years prior to drinking and the 3 years I drank. I have never ignored my responsibilities as a mother, wife, cook, housekeeper (I am a bit of a neat freak, however), volunteer or employee. I've always handled our money, including investments and have not ever done anything with money that wasn't responsible. I’ve never been clinically depressed, even when drinking. I didn’t lash out and hurt people I love. I didn’t do anything I regret and feel that I have made very good decisions in my life. I have a great outlook on life. My husband is a wonderful, loving, caring, and gentle person who has always supported me in all of my endeavors, including sobriety. I had a decent childhood and lots of family that I am close with. I’m happy being sober… I was happy when I was drinking, too, but I saw that it was affecting my health negatively (I still have raised liver enzymes, although the doctor tells me it’s not from drinking, but from being overweight as my numbers do not reflect alcoholic damage… there’s a certain pattern to how your numbers come out when alcohol is the culprit he says). I quit because I knew that continuing would send me to an early grave and I love life too much for that. I have a wonderful child that is the joy of my and my husband’s lives and I also wanted to experience the growing up years with all of my faculties instead of with a constant buzz. Oh, I started drinking because we moved all over the world and I spent those drinking years trying to beat the boredom. I’m happy to be back home and with my old friends again!

Anyway, all of that to ask… what am I missing here? The couple of meetings I’ve attended didn’t do anything for me. All of the AA literature, I can’t even relate to. I think about the step where you have to make amends and I think, “To whom do I make amends?? I only hurt myself when I was drinking.” I talked to my dh about this (and about AA in general) and he tells me, “I didn’t even realize you were drinking when you were drinking. You were always your same old self and I don’t think you need AA. I don’t want you to change. You’re just right the way you are.” I asked him if there was anything I needed to be apologetic about and he tells me “no”. He also tells me that as his father was a drunk, he knows how drunks act and he doesn't believe I'm an alcoholic.

I’m at a point where I am comfortable in my sobriety, but so much of what I read here is all about “recovery” and working a program... that I have to “feed the spirit” and “work the steps”. Even the first step is hard for me. Yes, I’m an alcoholic, but I’m not powerless. I spent 6 years studying the Bible, including in the orginal Greek (although I no longer consider myself a Christian) and everything that I studied comes down to “I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens ME." The beauty of Christianity is FREEWILL. Our lives, spiritually and secularly, are shaped by our OWN decisions and our OWN will. God’s biggest gift to man was his freedom to make his own decisions. Admitting powerlessness goes against Christianity, IME. So, see, I can’t even get past that first step! My best friend is a bible-thumping Christian (she has never been a drinker) and we hash out this kind of theology quite often... and she agrees with me.

I guess I am looking for reassurance from people who have more sober time than I have that if I am living a happy life, am happy about my sobriety and my spiritual and secular lives, then I’m doing what is right for ME. Or am I still missing something?

[discoveringme]

NatureLover: I havent been sober long (this time) but I have mixed feelings about AA myself. I know that it is a miracle for some. Others have done well without it.
So, in my humble opinion....whatever works for ya. I think this time I may need the fellowship and support of AA. I havent used it much in the past, and I didnt think I needed to. But now I am rethinking this...for myself. I know tha "jargon" sometimes seems wierd to me, but if someone has gone to a 12 step program for a while, the words are part of the community. I say, whatever is working for you is the way to go.

[nandm]

There are many roads to recovery. The term dry drunk refers to someone who has put the bottle down but is still miserable because they failed to change the behaviors that kept them drinking. I have been a dry drunk. I quit drinking because my ex husband said I had an alcohol problem. I spent one year in insanity because nothing changed on the inside of me. Needless to say I went back to drinking rather than continue that insanity. Today though I am sober and generally contented with life. I have both good and bad days but I do not hate life or people. For me, I have to continually work to change those parts of me that are out of balance.

I too thought I had not hurt anyone but myself with my drinking up until the end. I finally realized that for me drinking was just a slow suicide that was not only killing me but everyone who cared about me. It affected my children greatly. I have two ex husbands that it affected and countless friends and employers. But that is just me. It may not be applicable in your life.

If you are happy and content with your life then go with what feels right for you. A.A. is not for everyone but it does work for a lot of people. It happens to be the only thing that has worked for me.

[51anna]

Naturelover, how ever you choose to find sobriety is great. Whatever works for you is what you should do. I've been sober for 7 years and I am not an AA person. But, I do work on recovery every day and I come to SR very often because it helps me keep my balance.

[NOMOMERLOTMAMMA]

Hi Naturelover,

I say, whatever works for you. I was miserable, and AA is helping to change things about myself that needed to be changed. That's my experience.

Yours is different, you seem to have it all together, so that's really a blessing for you isn't it?

Karen

[bugsworth]

Naturelover, congratulations on your sobriety!

AA is not the only way to achieve sobriety, you have proved it. You are sober and happy! I agree with you in regards to you views on powerlessness. I too feel it is opposite of what I was brought up believing. I am powerless over what happens to me after I drink the first drink, but that is where it ends for me. I do however attend meetings 2 to 3 times a week as part of my own "program". I do this to remind myself of where I was, and where I don't want to go, by the grace of God I didn't lose material things, family members or my spouse, I lost me. Trust yourself to know what is right for you in your sobriety and remain confident.

[CarolD]

Glad to see you with us again...
and Yes! that member is no longer at SR.

No AA? So what?
It seems that you are doing well.

If you ever decide to use AA
it's always going to be around.

Way to go on your sobriety!
Congratulations!

Blessings to you and your family

[naturelover]

Thanks everyone for the words of encouragement and wisdom.

I guess what I am trying to say is that before I started drinking (I was 32 when I started and I'm 36 now) I felt the same way in my skin that I feel now. And thinking back... I seriously abused alcohol for about 3 years (to the extent of waking up and taking a belt in the morning... that serious)... other than feeling high, I pretty much felt the same way in my skin as I did when I was sober. I grew up in a loving middle-class home, went to college, got a great job, traveled the world, married a middle-class, solid, loving man, and have a great kid... I haven't had any major difficulties in life except for the drinking, so could my recovery simply be leaving the drinking behind? I don't fool myself into thinking that I am "recovered" because I realize that it is something that I have to mind for the rest of my life. But since I'm not "improving" myself (?) people here would say that makes me a dry drunk. But like NandM said, aren't dry drunks miserable? And if *I* haven't changed since before I was ever even drinking, does that mean that I was actually an alcoholic before I even started drinking alcohol? I don't know, I guess when I come here I second guess myself and I need to NOT do that.

[discoveringme]

but you DID improve yourself...you left the drinking behind. And if thats all that needed change, then all thats needed. Maybe you dont need to dwell whether you were or weren't an alcoholic before you started drinking, or if you have or havent changed anything, or if you are or aren't a "dry drunk". Who cares about that term anyway. Things are going good for you now and you are sober. YIPEE!!!!!!

[CarolD]

Well...
I've been in AA for many years.
Never have I used the term "dry drunk"
except to say "better dry than wet".

Relax...enjoy your life....
Blessings

[indigo]

Whatever program works for you, work it, it's good to see you posting.

[Clutch B]

Whatever works best for you. I'm in AA and couldn't have gotten sober without that particular direction -- but that's just me. It just so happened to be what I needed.

My sponsor says there are many ways to get to the same destination -- there are many paths available. We're all different with different needs. What works for one person may not work for someone else, and that's ok.

I hope you keep focusing on your sobriety. Stay true to yourself ... you are never alone. Keep posting!

[freya]

Originally Posted by naturelover

I guess I am looking for reassurance from people who have more sober time than I have that if I am living a happy life, am happy about my sobriety and my spiritual and secular lives, then I’m doing what is right for ME. Or am I still missing something?

I'm glad you are sober and happy -- and, since you are so, it is more than a little surprising to me that you would even give half-a-hoot what anyone else thinks or says about what you're doing and how you're doing it. I know you are looking for reassurance and answers, but, for me your post raises soooooo many questions about where you are really coming from and what is really going on with you that I really only have a lot more questions......

But first, I'll be up-front about my biases here. I consider myself a born-again 12 Stepper (Al Anon, not AA) but I am not Christian (although raised as such) and I try very hard not to anthropomorphize my concept of Higher Power, although I am comfortable using gendered terms and more traditional references for HP metaphorically when it makes communication/understanding easier and does not compromise my personal understanding of HP in any important way. Furthermore, I discovered the 12 Steps not as the direct result a desperate "bottom," but at a point in my life when I was definitely searching for spiritual connection, and as of this moment, they absolutely do constitute my personal "religion" and are the basis of my spiritual practice.

I guess I'll start with the very interesting juxtaposition of 1) your understanding of the the Christian God, 2) your apparent perception that 12 Step Programs do not support free will and 3) the information in your profile that indicates as your location as "at the healing alter of the Goddess."

Now, I'm going to go out on limb here and assume that "the Goddess" represents some kind of Higher Power to you. If that is the case and if, as your profile suggests, you in some sense receive help, guidance, strength, healing, etc.... from the Goddess and from your relationship with Her, do you really believe that you obtained sobriety all by yourself with the Goddess and/or your relationship with Her having nothing whatsoever to do with it...because that would seem to be what your post implies???? Also, if you are indeed at the altar of the Goddess, then aren't you "feeding the spirit"??? and why would you be doing that if you didn't recognize the need for and the importance of it??? I guess I'm just not seeing where you're finding so much conflict between any of this and the "principles of the (12 Step) programs"???? Maybe you can help me out here.

Onto the issue of powerlessness -- First off, I do not see anything in your post that indicates that you identify as or consider yourself to be an alcoholic. You do say that you abused alcohol, but, if you have attended more than a few AA meetings, you must surely know that that is very different from being an alcoholic. And, if you are not an alcoholic, then, obviously, you are most likely not powerless over alcohol insofar as your personal use of it goes. Going just on what you wrote above, it sounds to me like what you were powerless over was the circumstances that lead to your overwhelming boredom (in which case maybe some other emphasis in Step 1 would be more appropriate for you) -- and that you -- perhaps unwisely but not alcoholically -- choose to escape that boredom by abusing alcohol. This seems to me to imply that you felt/were powerless over the circumstances that "caused" your boredom.

There is nothing in the Steps or in 12 Step literature that I've read that says that we (you, I, or anyone else) are totally powerless over everything in every possible sense of the word (Actually, aside from the Steps themselves, I believe that the term "powerlessness" appears in the Big Book only twice.)....and, whatever you believe, however healthy and happy you are, you certainly do not think you are all-powerful, do you? That is a serious question, not a sarcastic remark. Because, if you are not all-powerful, then obviously there are some things you are powerless over. The idea behind 12 Step programs is that we -- each of us for ourselves with the help of HP and, if we're lucky, a few fellow-seekers who we trust -- need to properly and carefully identify (and accept and take responsibility for) where we have power and where we don't...and then, in the areas we don't or in the areas where we do but are not exercising our power out of fear, etc..., we connect with Higher Power to get help. Again, I'm not seeing any conflict with Christianity or the idea of freewill here.

Now you clearly realize that the choice to abuse alcohol was neither wise nor healthy, yet you insist that you have never had "emotional issues." This comment really caught my attention, both because I do not know a single person -- including the healthiest, most self-aware and spiritually centered people I know -- who have never had any emotional issues and because, in my experience, it is not at all common even for relatively emotionally healthy people to persist in a dangerous, self-destructive behavior of any kind for an extended period of time. Furthermore, if you have no emotional issues, what is it you get from locating yourself before the healing altar of the Goddess?

I hear that freewill is very important to you; it is very important to me, also. Why is it that you think the Steps, or the principles of 12 Step Programs in general, do recognize/allow for/value freewill? I have studied and worked the 12 Steps extensively (in Al Anon, not AA as I am not an alcoholic -- and I do mean "extensively" as I am a voracious reader and researcher) and I have yet to see anything in or about them that compromises, let alone negates, either the existence or the importance of freewill. In fact, Step 3 specifically encourages us to "make a decision;" there would be no sense whatsoever in deciding for or against anything if one did not, in fact, have a choice. Having a choice obviously implies freewill.

Also, just FYI, one of Bill W's greatest passions was for democracy and freedom of choice, (This is clear in many of the letters he wrote while he was writing the 12 & 12.) and, in fact, he ultimately decided not to join the Catholic church, even though he had spent a lot of time and energy studying Catholicism in preparation to do so, precisely because he could not set aside his personal objections to its overly authoritartian structure.

Or, perhaps your issue with the 12 Steps and the idea of freewill comes from the apparent conflict between the idea that we have freewill and that Higher Power (whatever one calls It) is loving, all-powerful and has a plan? I hear in your post that you are a very intelligent person who places a fair amount of value on your ability to reason things through. Again, I am a lot like this and have often been so to a fault -- for me, the "fault" comes when I, because of my strong reasoning ability and the many ways in which that ability has really served me well in my life, somehow without realizing it, start operating on the assumption that human reason, and my reasoning ability in particular, is or should be capable of grasping and understanding everything -- including "the mind of God(dess)," for lack of a better metaphor at the moment. So, I guess my question is, are you operating on the assumption that, if HP (God, Godess, the Force, whatever) had a plan, then we can not have freewill and we would be able to understand it and we would be able to understand, in the context of that plan, why "bad" things happen??? I guess, for me, I have come to the point where I realize that any HP that I could truly and totally understand would really not be of any use to me or anyone else, so I am willing to accept that some things are just paradoxes that I am never going to be able to resolve or understand -- at least not in any kind of a rational, objectively verifiable way....(this is where prayer and meditation come in for me -- although even on that level, I do not believe I -- or human being in general -- am ever going to be able to fully grasp the "mind of God(dess)."

I'm most honestly not trying to be mean or rude or argumentative here. My PhD work was in English Literature, with minor fields in Philosophy and Feminist Criticsm and I've also done extensive work in Composition and Rhetoric and taught all of these things at one time or another. And one thing that I know is almost always true is that, when, even after obviously careful thought, I or anyone else writes or says things that are in some fundamental way contradictory, that is a really good place to start asking questions that can lead to really important self-discovery. I don't know you at all and therefore don't have any idea what it is you have to discover...but I do know that we all have plenty...and I'm just trying to point out some questions that, from what you've written, might possibly be useful for you to consider in that process.

Congratulations and good luck -- freya

PS I apologize for lack of proofing here -- I am really rushed today!

[freya]

...two things I forgot yesterday....the one is related to what you said about making amends...first off, you indicated that when you were drinking you had a constant buzz....The simple fact of the matter is that operating under a constant buzz means operating in a substance altered state of mind and when one is in that state, regardless of how high-functioning one is and regardless of how good one is at hiding it, one is not, by definition, as emotionally and spiritually present to and for one's loved ones as one could be. I've actually been thinking about this quite a bit myself lately because I was going through some old journaling and back in probably '93 through sometime in '95 my marriage was falling apart and we began divorce proceedings and, even though I was not using any kind of chemical substance, I was so messed up emotionally and spiritually and so internally focused on my "problems" that, looking back on it, I was definitely not my true and best self for my children or for anyone around me who loved and cared for me and for whom I supposedly loved and cared, and I now know that that was both hurtful and unfair to them -- even though I never did anything that could be considered actively abusive in any way -- and I do need to make what amends I can for that...

Also, related to that, as an Al Anoner I know many, many people for whom the person to whom they owe the most amends is themselves....I think that is probably the case for a lot of people who exhibit overly responsible, compulsive caretaking behaviors toward everyone except themselves. You are not unimportant and whatever harm you may have done to yourself deserves your attention and your amends, too -- perhaps even first and foremost depending on the situation.

Finally, I'm not in anyway trying to convince you here that the 12 Steps, in any program, are the necessary answer for you. I've been around long enough to know that there is not one single thing in this world that works for and that resonates with every single person -- and regardless what path any of us choose, my personal opinion is that we will walk it best if we modify it the way we need to to make it truly "fit" for us.....The actual point I'm trying to get at in both of these posts is that the simple fact that you seem so determined to and are apparently spending a fair amount of time and energy on convincing yourself and others that the 12 Steps are in such conflict with what you're doing, when from what you've written that does not indeed seem to be the case, and the fact that you are seeking reassurance from strangers that you are "alright" in walking your chosen path are indications to me that you need to ask yourself some more internally focused questions about what's up.

Trying to shut up now -- freya