Elder's Meditation - March 1

[Ann]

"The beginning is purification, that's the first step..And purification means purification of body and mind. You don't purify the body without cleansing the mind; that's the way it works."
--Rolling Thunder, CHEROKEE

If we have bad thoughts or poison in our minds, they will eventually show up in our bodies in the form of headaches, pains, and stomach problems. It works this way because we are interconnected. Our minds and our bodies are one system. So when we start to grow, or commit to the Red Road, we need to start cleaning up our thoughts and start showing respect for our bodies. We start purifying our minds by prayer and meditation, and we start cleansing our bodies by getting the right amount of sleep and developing good eating habits. Today, I'm going to observe my thoughts. Will my thoughts be clean today?

Great Spirit, let me focus on Your love today so my mind will be pure.

[equus]

The connection between mind and body is strong - there's abundant evidence for that but sometimes I get concerned it can be half understood.

I think some emotions are better for us physically than others, feeling safe better than fear, love better than hatred. While I don't doubt the physical impact of ways of thinking which harm us my reservation is that sometimes once that has been understood people may explain too many aches and pains that way.

Sickness has a long, mixed history at a cultural level, sometimes seen as evil, sometimes seen as purely clinical.

When balancing how I feel about the connection between health and the mind I think about placebo's.

Placebo's are used in nearly every test of medication because that positive thought is known to have an effect on the persons health BUT the good medicine still works better!!

Our bodies are both physically vulnerable and will age and ail, they are ALSO vulnerable to the extra stress we put them through as a result of behaviour and ways of thinking.

The quote doesn't say all ill health is a result of impure thoughts but I think it has the potential to be mis-read.

I think working on taking the mind away from thoughts that harm us is ALL GOOD!! But not to blame our thoughts for all harm (if that makes sense).

[Five]

I think there is a huge connection between "purity" of body, like detoxes etc, and the clensing of sin found in religion. I think society is obsessed with a "clean, natural" state - so often prescribed by pseudoscience, health fascists, and narcasists. Deviating from your thread a little Ann - I try to not imagine that there is a "pure" state of mind, of body - that to me is a metaphysical statement. I am a human being. I eat good and bad things - I feel good then I feel bad. I refuse to accept that there is a pure, fresh and natural state. When I have, all I have felt is shame - health shame, needleslly feeling guilty for pleasures in life. And it begs the question - if "health" and "emotion" have an ideal state - then how do we see the unhealthy, the emotional stunted? In England we call them chavs. People laugh at how malnutrioned they look whilst munching on their Deli bought salad. Whats that saying by Mark Twain? A doctor should only cure you when your dying of smoking and drinking. That to me makes a great deal of sense.

[equus]

And it begs the question - if "health" and "emotion" have an ideal state - then how do we see the unhealthy, the emotional stunted?

Errrrr.. as tempory actions as opposed to summaries of whole people?

I can and do on occassion behave in an emotionally stunted way - the reason I know IT is stunted is because IT is not me, I can be aware of being an ass and actually use more of what I learn to feel better.

[equus]

Putting it another way - I believe rational is healthier than irrational. As anger and hatred reduce my ability to be rational I conclude they are unhealthy. I don't however conclude that I am unhealthy as a permanent state because I feel those things on occassion.

What the quote talks about is knowing both are in us - not dividing them as though they are people. If the salad munching, well dressed people realised that perhaps they wouldn't be so quick or keen to assume anything less means a person is worth less.

[Five]

I think good health is great. Buts when it gets tied up with morality and is prescriptive that it gets peoples backs up. Or either that or it just makes people nervous of what they eat, and their "lifestyles". The idea of purity is deep within a lot of peoples minds, I feel, including mine sometimes - and to me that is not healthy lol.

[Five]

there is some great reading on this on the wider web. I found it fascinating.

[equus]

And yet I FEEL better when I wash. I've washed animals and seen in them something of the same. While I don't neccessarily understand it - I've no wish to ignore it.

However - using it to judge someone else or myself would be very stupid bearing in mind how little I understand.

[Five]

I know what you mean.

Maybe I came off a bit hot headed - but I just read an essay by a Proff on this subject last night - and he tied in our health concerns with a lot of historical and religious contexts. He also believed that the pleasure/addictive/gratification "wiring" in our minds are evolutionary, neccesary, and an important part of our nature - and going against them in total abstinance is going against our own minds. I have tried so often to not drink coffee, not smoke, not eat things I like - and after reading that essay it freed me up to just accept myself at great speed. And, accept others as well. He also talked about the huge, huge role that pseudoscience plays in peoples health fears...

[Five]

http://www.sirc.org/publik/bad_habits.shtml

Check it out Eq. I would value your opinion.

[equus]

The history of it has countless murky and less than desirable parts. It wasn't so long ago people thought epilepsy and mental health problems were possession by the devil.

It is possible though to think through it rather than react, remember what you told me a couple of days ago regarding black and white thinking? I reckon this is the sort of topic it's tempting to look at in that way - black and white, all or nothing, but that isn't always the most rational approach.

Pseudoscience most often feeds a desire for things to be solid, permanent, categorised, understood - that strikes me as contrasting the history and nature of actual science which is fluid, changing, and engaged in the PROCESS of understanding.

From my perspective to look at old ways of thinking as entirely bad - even where they are religious is a mistake, they won't be that black and white. Just as science needs it's past I think as cultures and humans we need ours, some parts endure, some don't and others get strangley revived while we watch from only the perspective of a tiny window in time.

[equus]

Ok - I will (re the ref)

[Ann]

I find Native American teachings to be simplistic and uncomplicated, and most times I find them enlightening.

I think the simple version of this kind of thinking is that the more positive we are, the more we think in a healthy way, the more we find peace in our spirit...the better we feel. We can nurture our bodies all we want (and that is a good thing too) but unless we nurture our minds, we will remain unwell.

Think about this. When I am angry, or resentful or hurtful to others, or when I am dishonest or unkind...I don't feel good about it, it makes me sick, if you will.

When I keep a positive attitude, practice love and forgiveness, share with those who need what I have, and when I am spiritually connected with my Higher Power and in tune with nature...I feel a sense of well being.

Before recovery I was truly sick every day, because my thoughts and emotions were not healthy and I didn't know how to make it better.

Today I look for the light, live life as the best person I can be (warts and all) and nurture my spirit as much as my physical body.

It's just not complicated to me.

Hugs,

[equus]

Five, I skimmed the article but want time to think and read it better. On first glance there's a certain irony in on the one hand believing so strongly people need to live as they live and yet culturally (over time) being confident in outlining good vs bad. The answer for both I think is grey!

Ann, I agree about simplicity - except I don't think simplicity itself is simple!! (Okay - you can stop laughing now!) When we accept something is simple it's connected to multitudes of evidence and our own sense of reasoning - for example, in your response you summ up what will have been years of experience and the way you have seen connection between causes and events.

I do the same:

I believe rational is healthier than irrational. As anger and hatred reduce my ability to be rational I conclude they are unhealthy.

While we use different filters we both bring large quantities in time (all our experiences/filters) to bear on a few sentances. In essence the process is anything but simple!!

I like to hear the elders meditations because they are old wisdoms - the same reason I don't ignore religion, I often find they contain lots that's backed up well in evidence from our modern lives - a similar observation albeit through a different filter. I like wherever possible to open out the edges of my tiny portal in terms of a incy wincy single life.

[Five]

Originally Posted by equus

The history of it has countless murky and less than desirable parts. It wasn't so long ago people thought epilepsy and mental health problems were possession by the devil.

It is possible though to think through it rather than react, remember what you told me a couple of days ago regarding black and white thinking? I reckon this is the sort of topic it's tempting to look at in that way - black and white, all or nothing, but that isn't always the most rational approach.

Pseudoscience most often feeds a desire for things to be solid, permanent, categorised, understood - that strikes me as contrasting the history and nature of actual science which is fluid, changing, and engaged in the PROCESS of understanding.

From my perspective to look at old ways of thinking as entirely bad - even where they are religious is a mistake, they won't be that black and white. Just as science needs it's past I think as cultures and humans we need ours, some parts endure, some don't and others get strangley revived while we watch from only the perspective of a tiny window in time.

This has given me a lot to think over. Super rationalists seem to lack that certain thing...which I havent discovered what yet. I think realisim, or rationalisim, or science - often lacks feeling. I think thats it...

I do think reason creases out "bad" and harmful ideas over time though - so its needed.

Rambling...

[Five]

"From my perspective to look at old ways of thinking as entirely bad - even where they are religious is a mistake, they won't be that black and white. Just as science needs it's past I think as cultures and humans we need ours, some parts endure, some don't and others get strangley revived while we watch from only the perspective of a tiny window in time".

This inperticular is very interesting...

[Five]

I think we are coming from the same point of view Ann. I certainley dont feel good about myself when angry, annoyed, etc. I am just interested in the beliefs in society I think, where they come from, and where they will lead us. Its fascinating in that respect.

[Ann]

I love you guys, I really do, but I ain't never taking you to a Pow Wow.

Hugs,