Self-Pity

[Gabe]

"Self-pity is one of the most unhappy and consuming defects that we know. It is a bar to all spiritual progress and can cut off all effective communication with our fellows because of its inordinate demands for attention and sympathy. It is a maudlin form of martyrdom, which we can ill afford."
"As Bill Sees It" page 238

[Hopefloats]

Ditto, and Ditto again I don't have time for self-pity. It serves no purpose in my life. Instead of sitting in that negative place, I have acquired wonderful skills to keep me moving forward in a positive light. No matter what the circumstance, the better choice is to grab the good, and keep going forward. I am blessed to understand this. I also feel sad, really for those that can't or won't see this as self-defeating as it is. Not in a judging way, but in a way that makes me realize how much good a person misses in life, by living in self-pity.

Thanks Gabe...I liked this..
Hopefloats

[equus]

I can see how self pity doesn't help but it is still sometimes there. However it might stop us getting past something in that moment it won't last forever, it doesn't barr all progress for long.

Sometimes to take a moment and let others know when we hurt can be good too, life isn't a solo sport, we all need each other.

I sometimes wonder if questioning ourselves about self pity doesn't do more harm than good at a time when we might feel low anyway, just feeling lower and even more to blame. Maybe for a moment it does show a little too much attachment to self, maybe it can also guide us in teaching us the circumstances that cause hurt and helping us to understand why not to harm others.

It's never seemed to me such a big crime, not next to all the faults we human's show, sometimes we feel sad and sometimes that's for ourselves but all we can do is the best we can on that day - tomorrow we may be stronger.

I certainly think 'self pity' should never be used an accusation - so maybe we shouldn't accuse ourselves??

I dunno....

[Hopefloats]

Equus, I don't think any negative emotion should be used as an accusation. Great point there. But with that, I do think we need a place to go "from" there.
We must not allow it to become a way of life, or we stay lost. Have I ever held a pity party? I think most definitely. For me, finding the lesson in the experience is key. Great imput
Hopefloats

[equus]

I got curious so I looked up pity in the dictionary. I excpected to find some sense of superiority associated with it - pity being a bad thing, pity being disempowering; but I didn't!

pit·y (pĭt'ē)

1. Sympathy and sorrow aroused by the misfortune or suffering of another.
2. A matter of regret: It's a pity she can't attend the reception.

I also found where the word comes from:

[Middle English pite, from Old French, from Latin pietās, piety, compassion, from pius, dutiful.]

Now I'm wondering if it's our own conotations, our stiff upper lip culture that has made us see this so negatively.

I think maybe when we are hurting, angry, resentful our focus narrows till it's hard to see beyond what we percieve as the cause, and I also think it brings our focus to self rather than others. But maybe the answer isn't to condemn the pity or compassion for self, maybe the answer is instead to value it and change our pwerspective to allow us to see beyond self - allow us to hold the same for others.

What a pity for such a meaningful word as pity to have come to mean something seemingly wrong....

[Gabe]

I think there is a difference between self-pity and having compassion for ourselves.
Compassion strives to nurture and heal.
Pity moans, sighs, wails and stays stagnant.

[equus]

Pity moans, sighs, wails and stays stagnant.

But in striving to nurture and heal is there a place for such a negative picture.

When I read it I pictured it - it looked like suffering and while I don't doubt for a moment our attitude either gives us more or less suffering I also don't doubt it's unpleasant and mostly we do what we can to avoid it. If someone hasn't yet found the way in a situation I believe I could deal with better - perhaps the answer is to just offer whatever tools I have.

More often though I'm amazed by the amount people do know and it's me that needs the benefit of their tools. Sometimes it's just better to maybe share all we can and know tomorrow it'll be us needing someone else to share what they know.

Pity moans, sighs, wails and stays stagnant.

This just sounds to me like someone without the tool they need, at that time on that day. The next day they may well be my teacher.

[Ann]

Equus, I think I agree with much of what you are saying.

I try to be very careful using phrases like "pity party" and "drama queen" or other phrases that tend to ridicule and put down what may be very real feelings that need to be felt before they can be dismissed.

Throughout my childhood, I heard phrases like that, or "keep your chin up" or "get over it" and was forced to hold my emotions back and continue to stuff them until I was all stuffed out.

Who is to decide how long I need to "get over it"? Who is to decide how long I need to work through it, without deciding that I am "lingering in self-pity"?

Pity moans, sighs, wails and stays stagnant. ?? Pity moans, sighs, and wails all are indicators of great pain, to me. Pain that might take a long time to work through.

I think Bill W. might have healed faster if he had been "allowed" to tend to his wounds.

Just my thoughts from where I sit.

Hugs
Ann

[Five]

Originally Posted by Gabe

"Self-pity is one of the most unhappy and consuming defects that we know. It is a bar to all spiritual progress and can cut off all effective communication with our fellows because of its inordinate demands for attention and sympathy. It is a maudlin form of martyrdom, which we can ill afford."
"As Bill Sees It" page 238

You will have to forgive me Gabe, but I am so happy that I dont have to worry whether I am indulging in self pity or not anymore.

I like the way Bill always speaks of "we" and "our".

[Gabe]

"We are not meant to stay wounded. We are supposed to move through our tragedies and challenges and to help each other move through the many painful episodes of our lives. By remaining stuck in the power of our wounds, we block our own transformation. We overlook the greater gifts inherent in our wounds--the strength to overcome them and the lessons that we are meant to receive through them. Wounds are the means through which we enter the hearts of other people. They are meant to teach us to become compassionate and wise."
~Caroline Myss

I think everything serves it's purpose, even pain. I believe the quote that I posted from "As Bill Sees It" was meant to encourage people not to stay stuck in their wounds. Otherwise referred to as "wallowing". For me, recovery is about moving through our pain and onto healthier places. That is not to negate, devalue or ignore anyone's pain. It's just my belief that it's not a good place to live.

[Five]

Well said Eq. I dont think of terms like self pity, because I dont want to start judging other people that way.

Looked at carefully it quickly becomes

M E A N I N G L E S S.

Feeling sorry for yourself is not a crime. Infact, it may bring people close together. This world can get lonely, dont ya know?

[Five]

I dont think it means that Gabe. I think Bill was out to destroy peoples egos and build them back up again. He made me feel shame for every negative emotion I had, so then I would more quickly surrender to God. I have nothing but contempt for such a man. It got to the stage where I saw human suffering as "defective".

[Five]

Fear becomes pride (n).
Sadness and self dislike becomes self pity (n)
Self reliance becomes ego (n)
Thinking for yourself becomes "intellectual arrogance(n)".

Its no wonder people surrender to God when dealing with that mental agony.

[Hopefloats]

One of the greatest gifts that my sweet mom left me was the ability to not stay stuck in the darkness. We can call it anything, but most importantly is not to lose the message. Everyone has a belief, and that is all it is. What I look at is results. For me, I gain better results not wallowing. And I am a woman of great compassion. I cannot imagine my life without it.

Sometimes we get too stuck on "words", and we lose a powerful message. The message I took from this Gabe, was to look TO the light. To embrace our adversities and go forth. To let go of the past, and embrace our "todays" with a positive movement in our hearts that will propel us forward. So for me, this message works.

I have used the word drama. For ME again, I have seen it, I have heard top experts use this term and explore the impact on lives due to just that.... drama addiction. I have learned by others that can relate to that way of living. We have people that are indeed addicted to drama and chaos. Am I judging? No, and that is not what my feelings are about.

ON a last note. Hey Ms. Gabe..ART is in the heart. Just check out your avatar! NICE!!!!
Hopefloats

[equus]

I don't think anyone here in this thread has used self pity to knock someone else or devalue their feelings - as for Bill W's motives - how should I know?

I think whether it should have or not self pity is seen in a very negative light and it can be sad that being labelled such doesn't do much to help folk through it (I agree through is the answer). I think regarding the quote - it does seem deterministic and doesn't acknowledege how much our feelings can change. I didn't mean it glibly when I said today it might be my turn to share a tool but tomorrow the same person might be the one teacher I need.

Regardless of what the intention was I think calling pain

...a maudlin form of martyrdom, which we can ill afford.

is just wrong.

It doesn't sit at all with how I feel about people expressing pity, compassion or even sadness for themselves - nor is it how I feel about myself when I DO feel self pity.

[Ann]

Equus, perhaps it is because we don't like anyone telling us how we "should" feel. Again, I listened to that kind of crock for far to many years in my life.

Today I am who I am, I feel how I feel, without shame, without remorse, without apologies to anyone. It is a new found right, for me to be able to feel my emotions without asking permission from anyone, and to know that I don't own anyone's reaction to how I feel.

I think Bill W was a terrific man who did wonderful things, and I treasure the great legacy he left us. That said, he lived in a different time where for any man to "feel his feelings" was thought to be effeminate and "unmanly" and for women to express theirs was thought to be "hormonal" or "a bad case of the vapours". He spoke in the language of the time, and in a language that the listeners of the time could understand. It just isn't the language we speak today.

Hormonal Hugs
Ann

[Sigh]

humm...
Like Ann as a child I was strongly encouraged to very quickly deal with any emotions I might have had, in other words, exactly what Ann said "Get over it"
This lesson taught me that my feelings were not worthy of expression and that other peoples emotions were more valuable.
I wish over the years I had caught myself 1/8th the slack I cut everyone else. I ending up being my own harsh taskmaster.

I do think it's all a matter of degrees. I think a little self nurturing is a good idea, I wish I had learned it sooner. Self Pity? well perhaps we need a touch of that to examine or acknowledge why we are sad?

On the other hand sometimes you do run across a person who assumes their bag of troubles is larger and they choose (or get stuck?) in a wallow of their emotions?

I think a little self pity is an ok place to visit but not linger.

Just my opinion, which is prone to change with the light of new information.

hugs

sigh

[Five]

I personally hold anyone who tells me, as Bill Wilson is doing, what I should do or not do with my mental and emotional life in suspicion. There is a lot of assumptions, a lot irrational nonesense in this world as it is, and I would rather manage my own life by my own rules than by clasping onto concepts that are so absoloute. I dont want to end up screaming at myself, or others for that matter that they are "living in self pity" - because I dont really know much at all about life, or others, or how to live. I know enough and I am happy with that. It is that doubt that keeps me in harmony with the challanges and trials of life, rather than seeing it polarised through a series of absoloutes. Bill Wilsons dogma is something I reject whole heartedly, without fear, and would not push or force on anyone.

I have read all his statements, his books, his thoughts, and they mean to me near nothing.

[equus]

I believe the quote that I posted from "As Bill Sees It" was meant to encourage people not to stay stuck in their wounds.

That said, he lived in a different time where for any man to "feel his feelings" was thought to be effeminate and "unmanly" and for women to express theirs was thought to be "hormonal" or "a bad case of the vapours". He spoke in the language of the time, and in a language that the listeners of the time could understand. It just isn't the language we speak today.

I believe both these are true and in BW's time a person in authority was often in a place to deal out criticism and judgement. I find it highly unlikely that he sat down and wrote with any mal-intent, just as I find it unlikely he could have absolutely divorced himself from the culture of his time (growing up in the years shell shocked soldiers were shot!!).

What matters to me is today - how I feel about someone dear to me and in pain reading that quote, what I feel about how easy it is when we're hurting to add another flaw to the list, how I feel about people that struggle desperately not to self pity - so much so saying they hurt or asking for help leaves them feeling worthless.

The words matter only in so much as how they might impact - today, in our time. If I would feel upset for someone dear to me, then why not for someone I might not know?

As for people who think their sadness is greater - perhaps it is, maybe less has happened but their sadness continues and is greater because they don't know how to avoid it. Of one thing I'm sure - we would all rather avoid pain.

[Five]

Bill Wilson is someone who has been interpretated in many, many different ways.

[equus]

Originally Posted by Five

Bill Wilson is someone who has been interpretated in many, many different ways.

In that case perhaps best not to add to it....

[Five]

Originally Posted by equus

In that case perhaps best not to add to it....

Eq - you dont know how meaningful that is to me.

I wish you could see my face as to how spot on you are. I am through with Mr Wilson. If I ignore him he goes away...

[equus]

Originally Posted by Five

Eq - you dont know how meaningful that is to me.

I wish you could see my face as to how spot on you are. I am through with Mr Wilson. If I ignore him he goes away...

I think perhaps that will really be true when you do it peacefully without feeling anger.

[Five]

No doubt, I am still angry for sure. It will take time.

[equus]

An old man once told me and D a story - something of a wedding present, he asked us to listen and we did.

He said years ago he'd been a sailor and shared a bunk with an artist. He said the artist drew all their pin-ups in charcoal, beautiful pictures. He watched him draw every night and was so amazed by the skill that he thought he might like to try - he asked if he could borrow the pad and charcoal and his friend said he could as long as he showed him what he drew.

Matt used to like drawing at school and gave it his best attempt but got frutsrated. When his cabin mate returned seeing his things had been used he asked to see the drawing. Matt said he was ashamed, but his mate held him to the deal. Matt showed him the results and pointed out everything he hated.

His friend did the opposite and pointed out all that he could see that was good. Afterwards he told him 'Any idiot can see the wrong things but it takes intelligence to see what is good and use it.'

Matt finished his story and said by way of an explaination that he liked a certain song - one witha line that says 'I want a love that grows and grows, not a love that comes and goes'.

BW was just a man, human, sometimes hurting, sometimes right, sometimes wrong but he had the courage to show his work without that we wouldn't have had the chance for this discussion.