Growing in aitheism....

[equus]

I can only speak from my own perspective but I became an aitheist, not as the result of one event, not primarily because of trauma I'd experienced personally - it was just a quiet point where I realised I didn't actually believe in a conscious 'god'.

I look back on those first years now and I can giggle at myself - ooooo 'eck I was an aitheist with a passion for it!! People who believed were deluded, (not me though!!), words I'd once believed true with good reason now all had to be wrong. Oh and I argued my case with anyone and everyone regardless of invite! I don't think I was bad, just immature and I thought the louder I said it the truer it would be - quite funny because the lack of something really shouldn't matter that much.

Some things haunted my mind though, things I didn't have the language to explain, the good things in religion because no matter how loud I spoke they were still there.

I like getting older - I'm looking forward to one day being REALLY old. I don't think it was as much figuring something mindblowing out as having the confidence to use what I had already learned!!

I think the best of religion is compassion and the worst of it is dogmatism. Funnily enough I think the same about humanity, science, aitheism, and history.

Now I'm grateful for the things I've learned from a multitude of religions, because of their often long history I'm finding they are a wealth of wisdom. Many people who believe know more than I do and I'm not going to pass up my chance to learn worrying that I'll catch religion. I'm still an aitheist but to be honest I can't see it matters enough to worry whether I will be in X years time. I think not but I'll be dammned if I'll miss one chance to learn just to ensure that's the case.

[Five]

Interesting.

[Five]

I am a born again atheist.

[splendra]

: My Karma ran over my Dogma

[equus]

See I look at it this way. If you don't believe religions survive due to supernatural power then I think it's fair to assume they survive for some other reason. Without believing in god they are to me a collection of accumulated wisdom of peoples that spans thousands of years, thousands of miles, multiple cultures, etc etc - I can see more reason for an aitheist to believe they have something to teach us than someone who believes only in their own god.

In fact if I was to presume they have nothing to offer I would either have to believe people are dumb as hell (which would include me) or that it is something supernatural that offers them longevity.

[c'est la vie]

You make a really interesting assessment of why religions survive hundreds or thousands of years.
It is quite difficult to understand how something so seemingly impossible could be passed on as truth unless it actually happened at least remotely as the stories have been told. The question I can't stop asking is that if there is ONE God then why did he reveal himself in different ways to different cultures? Just to mess with our minds? I struggle to wrap my head around any one particular religion because I'm too "science based" and none of them can be "proven", but I'm trying to open up my heart to God and hope he shows me something or some reason to believe.

So equus, do you believe in any type of "life force" or whatever you want to call it. Or are we here simply because our parents had sex on a given day and voila. Eighty years of agony (or happiness) on this earth then back into the ground. I wish to believe more than that. I also wish you could come over for coffee and we could have a real conversation. We might get beaten here.

[equus]

I accept that the chances of life much less human life are pretty small but as it's possible we have an infinite number of planets (least ways we may never know how many!!) then even the tiniest odds would become likely on at least one of the planets.

If I look at the odds of me typing to you right now - they are tiny, and yet evidently I'm doing it! For my to type this to you the world had to be able to support life, life had to evolve, human beings ahd to evolve both physically (so I can use finger and thumbs), intellectually (so I can think about this) and culturally (so I want to be here, we use language, and the internet has 'caught on'). Not only that but my parents, two individuals amongst a whole planet had to meet, as did their grandparents, great grandparents etc, so did yours. Then both our lives had to share a theme which brought us here, we had to get on well enough to want to talk to each other, we both had to have access to computers and be born at a time our paths would cross - maybe 3 months either way and we'd never have met and I wouldn't be typing this to you. Then each one of those unlikley events has to be multiplied through all the generations of individuals who had to meet and like each other enough to have children. Simply that something is unlikely doesn't mean it won't happen - even when it's VERY unlikely.

However unlikely - I know certainly that I am here typing to you. However in no sense is my existance independant from others, it didn't begin that way, I don't believe it ever will be that way.

When it comes to life force I believe human beings and many animals have a fortunate position in that we can act to determine the effect our lives have on others. If I took a stone and removed all of the effect it had on the enviroment, if I removed it's effect to bounce light, you couldn't see it, if I removed it's effect on the surface on which it rests you couldn't feel it or weigh it, if then I removed it's impact on it's surrounding at a molecular level - could you say the stone was still there? I can't prove it but I believe not, I believe without any impact the stone has ceased to exist.

The stone can't decide what impact it has - to some extent I can. If impact/effect and existance are one in the same I can decide on my own existance. More than that, as I can see the impact of past lives on mine - even that I'm typing this to you, my impact/effect good or bad will continue after I am gone.

That's how I see it - we're a small part of something big and exciting, how we act, how we live, how we impact on what is around us shapes our existance and our existance will outlive our body.

So while I try to leave a good footprint I don't want to ignore what went before, I can't rely on just my wisdom - I wouldn't be able to speak english or type if I hadn't been taught. To live my life well I believe I need to understand I'm not independant and make use of what we have accumulated as human beings over time.

[bikewench]

I believe in a Higher Power because my life seems charmed when I do.

I've been athiest.. agnostic.. and I've surrendered..
all at different points in my life.. and not necessarily in that order.

When I read one time that a part of the brain lights up with we pray.. I realized for myself that we are hardwired to be connected to the All..

My spiritual belief is way larger than any one religion would ever embody... and I hold nothing between me and my God.

I love you God.

[equus]

I think prayer has lots going for it!! When I say to someone they'll be in my thoughts then I honour it by setting a little time to think about their situation, not coming up with answers just being aware.

I think that helps people because we aren't independant so we need time to connect and give thought to empathy. I don't 'ask' that x y or z happens but I do sometimes think about what effects our thoughts and behaviours have on the lives of others so if I want x to happen I try to look at how I can change my existance to make that more likely - BLAH!! This is HARD to explain!

In a nutshell I don't think people are deluded to pray - but I also don't need a higher power to do something very similar - which I find helps LOADS!!

[Five]

I am an atheist because I cant be bothered fowllowing God or any sort of doctrine.

Sounds far too much like hard work.

[equus]

I accept tha most results require effort - I want a good result from my life and I find repeatedly effort pays off.

I don't follow any doctrine either - but I take bits of many things that are a doctrine to other people, the difference is I don't do so because I feel I have to or should.

Some examples:
Hindu's believe the practice of religion is more important than the belief - they believe how you live is more important than why.

Muslim's end a future plan with 'Inschallah' 'God willing' - it's habit to accept the uncertainties of life and be at peace with them.

Buddhists believe in dependent origination - a mind blowingly fascinating philosophy that I think is tighter than a duck's bum!

In the christian faith are teaching about who we consider our relatives - The good Samaritan, non -judgement 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone'. Compassion, non-violence - and I could go on (it's the one I grew up with!!).

I'm free to take the parts of any that I see reflected in life but as I believe they are people's words not god's I don't have to take any, just what helps.

What I choose to believe partly comes from what I notice creates problems versus what I notice creates peace and happiness.

[Five]

Was only joking...

It would take me a couple of sides of A4 to expain why I am an atheist, and why I disregard relgion, but I doubt it would do anything other than cause agro.

[BigSis]

I believe there is a difference between faith and religion and between spirituality and dogma. The universe is filled with mystery. How I define it does not change the nature of the mystery.

What I have discovered in my recovery is that my focus and my view is too narrow. All my best thinking got me ... into recovery.

I have learned to let the universe lead while I enjoy the music for a bit.

Letting Go... may be the biggest part of my recovery.

[bikewench]

couple of sides of A4

lol..
new kind of paper..??

[equus]

Originally Posted by Five

Was only joking...

It would take me a couple of sides of A4 to expain why I am an atheist, and why I disregard relgion, but I doubt it would do anything other than cause agro.

But with that you disregard some of the oldest writings in the world, a massive part of history, a multiplicity of cultural heritage, the basis of many laws, wars, ends of wars, the beliefs behind the creation of the NHS, the reasons slavery was challenged, and almost certainly the roots of many of your own feelings.

You don't have to follow in order to respect that WEALTH. I'm an aitheist who regards religion well.

[Five]

Agreed, without a doubt. Of course.

[Steve.clarke1-]

Hi I'm Steve, an alkie from England, Todays my 4373rd day without alcohol or mind altring chemicals thanks to AA. I have No belief in any religious god and choose Group of Drunks as my H.P. A freind in the fellowship is an atheist, and last year he celebrated his 42nd AA birththday. I was just coming up to 3 when his sobriety started.
Keeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep Coming Back
Steve4373

[Five]

Disregard meaning at this current stage of what I know about religion, there is nothing I have found that has made me want to make the leap...But that is not to say that I disregard religion as it presents itself to me. I am reasonably open minded, and I have read a bit on most of the worlds religions...

...sheeesh this could turn into a "how athiests are so close minded" debate.

[equus]

.....sheeesh this could turn into a "how athiests are so close minded" debate.

I may already have the teeshirt but I'm getting better!!

I wasn't having a go at you five - just being a stroppy mare!

[Five]

I know you werent eq!

Actually, on reflection, quite a few things in Buddisim I think are very, very groovey.

I also like some of the ideas behind holistic medicine.

So, I guess I was lying!

Peace

[Steve.clarke1-]

AA is My Religion, I've been to 3 meetings so far this week and done a 12 hour shift on the AA Helpline, and plan on going to a meeting on Fri,Sat,and Sunday this week.( Normaly I only get to 4 meetings a week and do a 12 hour stint on the phone)
Keeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep Coming Back
Steve4373

[equus]

So, I guess I was lying!

Or hiding...

[Jack Sprat]

My G-d is my 8 year old grandson. I worship him. He has never seen his father, just like myself. He needs my worship, and will get it.

Karl Marx said "religion is the opiate of the people". I am not a communist nor a marxist, but I read his book. Religion gives those in power a way to control the common people. It prevents anarchy and chaos in many civilizations. That's the look from the top side down.

Now look at the commoner. He is dragged to church (insert synagogue, temple, whatever here) as a young child and indoctrinated to hell fire and brimstone. He has no freedom of choice. His mind is programmed for life. As an an adult he drifts away from religion. Ah but he is left with all those thoughts of guilt that his brainwashing caused. It creates utter turmoil in some.

He constantly struggles with the wonder of whether G-d exists, or not. Then with the passage of time, he becomes old and sick. Ah now this is where he gets the PAYOFF! He remembers the promise of eternal life. He will not die! He will go to heaven and exist forever and ever. Now he can face his diseased, broken body with calmness and grace, if he believes, goes to church and gives 10% of all his money. He is blissful and patiently awaits his rebirth. He has no fear of death.

Heck, I don't know...I do remember as a child, maybe 7 or 8, promising G-d that I would not be happy, if only he would make bad things stop happening in my life. That was my sacrifice to him. I had this fear that if I became happy, he would punish me. Here is the pitypot part. I had an alcoholic stepfather who used me as a punching bag. He would leave for a few days. I would find some smigen of happiness. Then he would come back broke and angry. Not a lot of food was around. I remember coming home from school and would be very happy to find a raw potato. I would pell it and salt it good and eat up. Boo hoo for me, right? Nah, save your pity for someone who needs it.

We were sharecroppers. My Dad killed himself when I was almost 4. I saw him one time and he was in a casket. He saw me one time and he was in jail for non-support. I was 6 weeks old and he held me with his arms placed between the bars. They wouldn't unlock him to see me. He was a highly decorated combat infantryman in WW II. He fought in the South Pacific for 19 months. He was crazy when he came back.

So the stepfather went looking around the housing projects to find a women that had some boys that he would work like slaves, while he drank. When I was 5 years old, I worked 7 days a week. I hate chicken farms and milk cows to this day.

Anyway, this belief that I could not be happy, else G-d would punish me, has stayed with me to this day.

[equus]

I see in this world so many awful things done to children and adults, but at the same time I've seen examples of immense kindness. Our focus can get caught up in the horror and we can so easily forget to see what's good around us. I found myself doing that reading your post, getting caught up in the pain you describe so well and forgetting the love you show your grandson - both are real, both happen in this world.

I don't believe in a God therefore don't feel anger for a being who stands by when it could intercede and save pain. I believe we can learn where the pain comes from and I believe we can act to prevent creating more. For me a large part has been to understand where anger leads me, not that I feel I 'shouldn't' be angry or that anger is bad. I know the destination I arrive at if I stay in anger too long and that isn't where I want to be - I think it's where lots of the pain we see is made.

On the other hand I can see the results of kindness, valuing human beings, offering friendship, giving love, even giving 'family' love to those who aren't related to us. I've seen even the most abused children affected by love, friendship, even a smile - both remain real.

I love being an adult, it's like someone handed me the pen to write my script, I value that so much - this is my life, inside my heart nad mind I can chosse which path to take.

Anyway, this belief that I could not be happy, else G-d would punish me, has stayed with me to this day.

I believe that real lasting happiness comes from understanding what causes suffering and what gives peace, behaving in a way that offers friendship and kindness I think makes for happiness, behaving in a way that creates suffering I believe destroys happiness. I have never seen a religion that suggests any person be punished for attempts to bring about peace and happiness.

I'm laying a bet that the love you offer your grandson lights up your life?