The Cognitive Revolution

[Five]

At last mankind has come up with a decent therapy!

Here are some links I have pruned:

http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:...volution&hl=en

http://www.cognitivetherapy.com/learning.html

http://www.psychologicalscience.org/...le.cfm?id=1529

http://www.352express.com/wpm/files/...plications.pdf

http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:...+therapy&hl=en

[historyteach]

Five;
There's a ton of material on these posts. What's the point you want to make? Exactly what are you trying to point out to us?

Shalom!

[Five]

I dont really understand your post history.

[Five]

The point I am trying to make is that Cognitive Therapy is one of the first therapies that has been PROVEN to work for people who suffer from conditions like ours - depression, fear, self dislike.

These techniques are easily appliable to anyones life - they can be learnt and practised - a tool, if you like. I for one am happy for the day that a doctor carefully explained to me about CBT. My life has not been the same since.

These articles may inspire someone - maybe someone chronically depressed for example - to explore CBT.

Also it is about time the recovery community understood that rationalisim is now becoming part of recovery - much needed, infact achingly needed. People who have not been helped by "spirituality" and ideological references of "self" and "meaning of life" could find that the more rational approach does not have to mean a complete over hall of personal beliefs. Spirituality is great for those who want spirituality - and CBT is fantastic for the rest, as are many other things.

[Five]

CBT is very viable route for people who are not getting anywhere with AA.

[Dan]

Top shelf stuff, looks like, Millford.
I'll have a read when I get back.

These articles may inspire someone - maybe someone chronically depressed for example - to explore CBT.
Good deal

[equus]

CBT is very viable route for people who are not getting anywhere with AA.

Not to mention anyone living in stressful situations (like - errr you know, family)!!

This is the perfect forum for this information - it is absolutely about recovery. I would say though that it doesn't require comparison, it stands alone quite successfully without needing to be compared.

[historyteach]

OK, Thanks, Five!
Yes, I'm very familiar with CBT and teach it to my students. It is a great way to work though many of life's issues.
Thanks for sharing!

Shalom!

[Five]

I really do believe it is could be of use History - thats why I posted it. Not really to try and prove a point, but maybe proving points indirectly. Sometimes we state something and what do ya know...loads of points are made!

[Five]

CBT is also highly compatable with spirituality - in my understanding, a balance when things are unbalanced for the spirtualy minded. A tool created by God???

I know people who are staunch AAers who swear by it for depression etc - so the two seem compatable.

Also could be great for those who are turned off by spirituality intirely, so they get a "pure reason" route.

[Dan]

I may be wrong, but as I understand the word rationalist, it brings to mind people such as Einstein, Sagan. Great believers and practicians of the bullshit detector theory.
And also, in their writings, very spiritual men.

[Five]

Rationalisim I think is an end in itself, but so then is pure faith.

Balance and all that jazz!

[Five]

mental agony.

[equus]

I don't think it matters what philosophy you have - CBT just helps and is shown consistantly to be effective in changing lives for the better.

Personally I like the way it highlights the flaws in my own perception, kind of flags up where I jumped to conclusions too quickly and then gave them too much faith.

[Don W]

Five, I've been using some of the Cognitive Therapy this time around in recovery. Although I use it in conjunction with my AA and Veterans program. I think provide people with alternative is great. The only concern I have at times, is that sometimes, when these are only given as a replacement for AA. There are many other programs that I tried to get sober and didn't work. Are you saying that all the other programs work except for AA, so we should try Cognitive Therapy. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be confrontational but, I think CBT can stand on it's own merits without even the mention of AA. CBT is a very big part of Smart Recovery, what would you suggest one do if the Rational Recovery program isn't working? Better yet, if someone tries this CBT and doesn't stay sober, would you suggest trying another program? There are many programs, some I don't care for, however some stay sober using them so who am I to judge. Sobriety is a common goal of all these different methods, I just don't understand why there can't be a common interest in all groups succeeding in this goal. I just don't find myself being less happy if one finds sobriety in another program. Working in the health care field I've seen patients suffer because of the competition among hospital. One hospital might be able to cure a patient that another can't. That doesn't mean the one that can't is a bad hospital. Another thing that CBT has done for me is change my perspective. If you look at things differently, sometimes your perspective changes. This includes recovery methods.

[fuster]

CBT is a way to work with a person, it is not exclusive, but simply a way to work with someone on modifying behavior. It might work to modify some behaviors. No one theory works with all persons when long term behavior change is the goal. It may help a person trying to reach sobriety. It may not. The only person I know real well (one of my best friends) who uses Smart Recovery, has NOT stayed sober using it, but he insists on not trying anything else, despite repeated failure using CBT to be sober. But he is only one person, and the bottom line is that he is not willing to do whatever it takes to get and stay sober. Has little to do with CBT, more to do with his own will power or lack thereof.

I would also like to hear the answer to the question about whether you will recommend other routes if a person does not stay sober trying to use CBT?

[Don W]

Right on fuster. For many years I continued to drink and blamed the programs I tried. The real problem was myself. I was almost as afraid that these programs would work, as they wouldn't. And for years used them to enable myself to drink. I thought that if I continued to drink, as long as I was going to a program, she and the others should get off my back. I forget the name but, I even tried one that was going to teach me to be a social drinker again. Of course the problem was "AGAIN." Again required that I was one at one time. I don't ever remember being a social drinker.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Dan

I may be wrong, but as I understand the word rationalist, it brings to mind people such as Einstein, Sagan.

Kind of funny, and even a little ironic that Carl Sagan used to pronounce the word "human" as "uuman", without the "h".

Lol.

[equus]

I have no idea what the situation is in the US but here in blighty mental health services are the poor relation. We live in the catchment area for a trust that is awarded 1 out of a potential 4 stars, and at this rate it might lose that!!

CBT studies are largely based on CBT being delivered face to face by a proffessional - there's no way on earth a website can be equal to that. Having said that we live in a far from ideal world and it IS possible to use the benefits of CBT by using a structured online programme and SMART has my respect for it's realism in offering that and it's determination for it to be of the highest quality possible.

Psychology as suffered horribly from fashions, what's in vogue. The power and uses for behaviourism have been known for decades and woefully underused, it struggled against the appeal of 'subconscious' and aproaches seen as more 'person' centred. It suffered from people's aversion to seeing themselves in anyway similar to a pigeon! (And yet our brains while structured differently work by the same mechanisms).

Cognitive behavoiourism ties in 2 schools of psychology, cognition and behaviourism - it acknowledges a behaviour that is unobservable, our thoughts, a cardinal sin for hardline behaviourists that want nothing to do with something you can't measure.

It has proven a powerful tool, but a measurable one which can be off putting to the 'medicine men' who have all too often dominated psychology, can be found in any phone book and can usually be spotted by encouraging dependence on them rather than independence from them.

It is respected acedemically for consistant good results, it is a powerful tool, it is still underused. For those involved it's a frustrating process of compromise and offering what they can while they wait for fashions to slowly change.

How do I know? I worked in behaviourism (ABA not CBT) - I was always working in a less than ideal situation, we had the success rates on side but struggled through fashions for it to be recognised. I watched as Norweigen's travelled to work as consultants, passing on what is in their country the treatment of choice for autism - because some of the kids even recover fully, I worked with one that did. I watched their frustration as they began to refuse new cases in the UK - we simply didn't fund, it was unfashionable. There were consultants from the US but none (I worked with) with the same acedemic disciplines.

I left it. Thankfully due to those much more determined than me slowly recognition is growing - still slowly but growing. By recognition I don't mean acedemic recognition, I mean fashion, acceptability, liking.

SMART reminds me of those pioneers by getting it out there. I should think those involved would love nothing more than the site to be news and forums alone with CBT readily available from competant practioners on a face to face basis. But you can either be daunted or start - I respect them rolling up their sleeves, saying 'Ok it's a problem but lets sort what we can, piece by piece and get it out there.'

However let the SMART folk correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think they would want CBT judged by any situation less than a clinical setting. I think they would love nothing more than to be there as a top up community, for information, news, contact with service users, and able to raise research questions.

As it is they let us know so we can ask for it, they offer what they can very successfully, they helped me, they want to keep improving and in getting by with what they have they are undoubtedly finding new ways in which it can be used effectively.

Without people with that attitude regardless of method, I would hate to calculate how hard to get and expensive any treatment for addiction would be. However CBT is a very good method!

[Five]

Just wanted to say, before I disappear completley into the depths, that was a fantastic and cogent post Eq.

[equus]

Blah!! Thanks - I needed that, re-reading it it seemed a bit pedantic!

Flip!! I confess I'm a pedant! Honestly though I've seen D with face to face help 'vs' online, I've experienced both kinds too and while I'm hugely grateful for both, a GOOD, QUALIFIED, EDUCATED counsellor is hard to beat!

CBT is used as part of the UK mental Health system - widely, the problem is that the system it's used in is underfunded and poorly set up, as a result access is damn near impossible unless you; a) see purple rabbits in your underpants, b) cut, strangle, or physically mark yourself (I would say self harm but without blood or bruises I don't think it counts - unless there's blood it's the clients fault!), c) attempt suicide using a fast method, or d) threaten to harm or harm others.

Access to the internet is so much easier to come by!!