Low Self Esteem

[Gabe]

Signs of Low Self-Esteem

* Self-blame, self-criticism, or constantly putting others down through guilt, blame, shame, or faultfinding. Finding forgiveness difficult.
* Over or underachieving, -eating, -working, -doing, etc.
* Playing the victim, rationalizing that outside circumstances are the causes of your problems.
* Not taking responsibility for your own life; turning power over to another to make decisions for you, then feeling victimized if the results are not to your liking.
* Taking too much responsibility for the lives of others, dominating and making decisions for them.
* Fear of change and reluctance to take risks. Or too much change, taking dangerous, unwise risks.
* Constant negativity or being so optimistic that reality is denied.
* Reacting to others with extreme emotion or no emotion.
* Boastfulness, lying, embellishing, exaggerating, and overbearing behavior around others.
* Inability to maintain integrity during interactions with others.
* Demanding to be “right,” needing to have agreement or have your own way most of the time, or constantly acquiescing to the will and opinions of others.
* Constantly comparing yourself to others, thereby feeling inferior or superior.
* Black/white, either/or thinking; e.g., believing that a person is either good or bad based on rigid standards of behavior.
* Having pervasive deep-seated feelings of fear, terror, or panic.
* Speaking with lots of shoulds, oughts, could haves, and yes-buts.
* Interpreting the hurtful words or actions of others as proof of your unworthiness.

[CAPTAINZING2000]

Gabe,

pretty much describes my work place!!!!

[Hopefloats]

Amen Gabe...another keeper here
Hopefloats

[Grimnar]

* Not taking responsibility for your own life; turning power over to another to make decisions for you, then feeling victimized if the results are not to your liking.
* Fear of change and reluctance to take risks.
* Constantly comparing yourself to others, thereby feeling inferior or superior.

I quoted these ones because they are issues that I think I struggle with from time to time. When I have tried to - for example - take more responsibility for myself, it's a change and the people around me react poorly to that in most cases.

I am working on taking more risks and not comparing myself to others.

[Gabe]

I visit a mental health board that has really good articles on it. That's where I found the above reading. Their theme this month is dishonest people and the causes of dishonesty. Lying (habitual or compulsive) is one of the signs of low self-esteem. Today I found this:
"Compulsive lying is called 'pseudologia fantastica'. It comes from many
different sources. Most specifically, as you've guessed, is a lack of
self-esteem, driven by an underlying depression. Sometimes it is driven by
a personality disorder. At the very least it is a characterological
disturbance. At the worst, it is a sign of sociopathology."
I thought this would be interesting to post here since many of us on the Anon side of the fence deal with lying. Not only the lying to cover up the addiction, but lying for no apparent reason.
That is something that I've always had a great deal of trouble understanding. I can see why someone would lie when it falls under the "normal" reasons for lying.
To avoid negative consequences, to cover up a bad behavior, etc. But the compulsion to lie, or to fabricate stories for no apparent reason has always made me wonder why.
Seems like it's another form of personality disorder.

[minnie]

Gabe - thank you for posting all of the info on here. Almost all you describe is what I have dealt with on a daily basis with my ex - when we were together as a couple and even more so now that we are apart but still business partners (but not for much longer now.)

Interesting you mention Personality Disorders. I have long suspected that R was clinically sociopathic (anti-social personality disorder), but of course I am no doctor. But I do think that these disorders are more prevalent that we care to admit and very often run alongside addiction. I used to look at a Borderline Personality Disorder anon (?) board and almost all of their diagnosed BPD partners also abused drugs and/or alcohol. But we almost never see mention of PDs on here. And that is why I struggle with applying the label "alcoholic" or "addictive" to behaviours, as if they explain everything. Would a spouse be more or less likely to stay with a partner if they were diagnosed alcoholic or sociopathic? Are there groups, like al-anon, for learning how to live with a sociopath, whether in recovery or not? The behaviours can be so similar as to be indistinguishable. In fact, some psychiatrists would say that addictive or alcoholic behaviour can (?will) become sociopathic over (a long) time.

Ooops, rambling again.

[Gabe]

Originally Posted by minnie

Ooops, rambling again.

Good.
I love it when you ramble.

Originally Posted by minnie

But I do think that these disorders are more prevalent that we care to admit and very often run alongside addiction.

I think they're very prevalent and that they are enmeshed with addiction.
The problem is, treatment for one thing doesn't necessarily take care of the other.
For instance, addicts can leave the drugs and alcohol behind and still be compulsive liars. The lying may have started to cover up addict behavior, but it continues when the addict isn't using anymore. Maybe this is because the drug and alcohol abuse were symptoms of an underlying problem to begin with. I don't know, I'm still processing all of this.

[minnie]

Alcoholics More Likely to Have Personality Disorders

from JAMA News Release
Even More Prevalent in Drug Addicts
The prevalence of personality disorders among patients with alcohol and drug use disorders is significant in the United States population, according to an article in the April 2004 issue of The Archives of General Psychiatry, one of the JAMA/Archives journals.

Very little information is available on the co-occurrence of different personality disorders (PDs) and alcohol and drug use disorders in the U.S. population, according to background information in the article. Therefore, Bridget F. Grant, Ph.D., of the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, Bethesda, Md., and colleagues investigated this issue.

The researchers used data collected during interviews conducted as part of the 2001-2002 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions .


The prevalence rates of any alcohol or drug use disorder for the previous year were 8.5 percent, and 2.0 percent, respectively. The researchers found that among individuals with a current alcohol use disorder, 28.6 percent had at least 1 personality disorder, and 47.7 percent of those with a current drug use disorder had at least 1 personality disorder. personality disorders and alcohol and drug use disorders were significantly associated, the researchers write.

Individuals with alcohol use disorders were almost five times as likely to have antisocial personality disorder or histrionic personality disorder, and were three times as likely to have a dependent personality disorder. Individuals with drug use disorders were 11 times more likely to have antisocial personality disorder and dependent personality disorder, and eight times as likely to have histrionic personality disorder.

The researchers also found that associations between obsessive-compulsive, histrionic, schizoid, and antisocial personality disorders and specific alcohol and drug use disorders were significantly stronger among women than men, whereas the association between dependent personality disorder and drug dependence were significantly greater among men than women.

"The co-occurrence of personality disorders with alcohol and drug use disorders is pervasive in the U.S. population," write the authors. "Results highlight the need for further research on the underlying structure of these disorders and the treatment implications of these disorders when comorbid [when they occur together]."


Also - http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/aug2004/niaaa-02.htm

[Gabe]

Symptoms of three of the personality disorders mentioned in Minnie's post...

Antisocial Personality Disorder:

The symptoms of antisocial personality disorder include a longstanding pattern (after the age of 15) of disregard for the rights of others. There is a failure to conform to society's norms and expectations that often results in numerous arrests or legal involvement as well as a history of deceitfulness where the individual attempts to con people or use trickery for personal profit. Impulsiveness if often present, including angry outbursts, failure to consider consequences of behaviors, irritability, and/or physical assaults.
Some argue that a major component of this disorder is the reduced ability to feel empathy for other people. This inability to see the hurts, concerns, and other feelings of people often results in a disregard for these aspects of human interaction. Finally, irresponsible behavior often accompanies this disorder as well as a lack of remorse for wrongdoings.

Histrionic Personality Disorder:

Symptoms:

* Needs to be the center of attention
* Dresses or acts provocatively
* Rapidly-shifting and shallow emotions
* Exaggerates friendships
* Overly-dramatic, occassionally theatrical speech
* easily influenced; highly suggestible
* compulsive lying


Dependent Personality Disorder:

Symptoms:

Cannot make decisions without huge amounts of advice, confirmation, reinforcement and impetus from others.
Needs to be taken care of on material aspects.
Cannot defend themselves for fear of losing support.
Cannot initiate projects without others.
Needs support from others and will go to great lengths to win support.
Has difficulty being alone, for fear it will become a permanent condition.
Bounces right into another relationship when one ends.
Obsesses about losing loved ones.

I never had low self esteem, mine was simply non existent.

Good thread.

[Time2Surrender]

Originally Posted by Doug

I never had low self esteem, mine was simply non existent.

Good thread.

. Im glad I was not the only one.

[minnie]

Doug and Time2 - which came first, the lack of self-esteem/self-worth or the addiction?

*edit* if you don't mind me being so nosy.

[Time2Surrender]

Thats a very good question.Im going to have to get back with you on that one.

[Dan]

Originally Posted by minnie

- which came first, the lack of self-esteem/self-worth or the addiction?

In my case, I think both were present from the get go.
And they fed off of eachother as. The more I felt like I worthless piece of sh!t, the more I got loaded, and the more I got loaded, the more I felt like a useless piece of sh!t.
All I know is that I can remember escaping from my present moment and myself at a very early age. Back then, it was imaginary friends and the like. Very normal for most children, I suppose.
But I never outgrew it.

[Time2Surrender]

Probably the same for me.Both were there from the beginning and fed off each other.

[historyteach]

Trevor is and always has been a chronic liar.
We had a thread about a year or more ago about this very topic. Everyone, (that knew the addict as a youngster), said that their addicted loved ones were chronic liars and for no apparant reason.
Like you, I can understand someone lying to escape consequence. But for no reason at all? It just never made sense to me. And this goes back to his very young childhood!

Shalom!

[Gabe]

"Chronic liars invariably lie because they suffer from a low self- esteem," says psychiatrist Dr Prasad Shetty. "It is more often an attempt to create a more impressive identity. But sometimes its more than that." Says psychiatrist Dr Sutapa Basu, "For those whose feelings of inadequacy, the process of lying may be more important than the content of the lie. Its the thrill of ‘making a fool out of someone’ that becomes a primary reason for lying’’ she says. "Successful lying can be seen as the excersizing of power over another," writes Dr Charles V. Rhode, professor of Psychiatry in his book The Psychology of Deceit. "To get someone else to believe a falsehood is to devalue that person and obtain a sense of superiority or control". Studies have shown that lies are also used to maintain interpersonal distance in an attempt to protect one's personal space that is we may conceal or distort information about us to prevent an intrusion by others.
"Pathological lying is an impulse disorder," says Dr Shetty. "like certain other impulse disorder- Pathological drinking, gambling or shopping- chronic liars get a thrill out of the act. And like the other disorders the impulse disorder settles down once the act is done." He explains. "Chronic lying in adults is often a manifestation of an anti-social personality." Says Dr Basu. Adds Dr Rhodes, "individuals with certain personality disorders (antisocial, borderline and narcissistic) are generally identified as those who are the most likely to lie.’’
So can one be a born liar? According to Dr Rhode, "Research shows that some people appear to be genetically predisposed toward practising deceit." In fact, he writes of investigations of identical twins raised apart which have shown similarities in their tendency of lie. He also mentions other international studies of exceptional families which have similarly suggested a genetic component underlining a deceitful behaviour. He adds, "Learning disabilities, or forms of non-specific cerebral dysfunction, are also frequently seen in pathological liars."
Environmental factors too work at this greatly. Says Shivamani Rajamuthaiah, a clinical psychologist, "A family cultural values or moral standard may permit or discourage lying. Families that severely punish misbehaviour paradoxically promote lying, because they are increasing the child's need to avoid punishment. Conversely , a family may encourage lying by simply ignoring it,".
And can lying be cured? "Most chronic liars wouldn’t bother to seek help because they are comfortable with it," says Dr Basu. "After all it doesn’t cause any physical harm. But if their lives and career are in serious jeopardy because of their lying then they might,". However, "lying can't be cured. It can only be curbed," she adds. "You can't do much in terms of medication," feels Dr Shetty, "but long term counseling and behavior therapy can help" he adds. "As for those around the pathological liar, there is one thing that they can do to help- not take him at face value and let him know about it." suggests Dr Basu.
Ditto, while dealing with ‘normal’ liars around us. By refusing to believe them we would be doing ourselves a favor. So if it's been two months since your boyfriend promised to call and if you are still waiting, willing to believe if he tells you someday that he is truly busy, then it's not him, it's you who needs help."

ARE YOU A PATHOLOGICAL LIAR ?
http://www.chembur.com/gos.htm

[minnie]

To get someone else to believe a falsehood is to devalue that person and obtain a sense of superiority or control

Bingo!! I think that is EXACTLY what is going on in my life at the moment, and has been for a long time. Reared its ugly head again because I have taken control, in a sense.

So if it's been two months since your boyfriend promised to call and if you are still waiting, willing to believe if he tells you someday that he is truly busy, then it's not him, it's you who needs help.

Ha ha ha. Exactly.

[Gabe]

"To get someone else to believe a falsehood is to devalue that person and obtain a sense of superiority or control."
That one jumped out at me too.
I never thought about chronic lying as an attempt to be superior or gain control.
I still don't see how the lying for no apparent reason fits in.
Unless it's just a compulsion, similar to addiction.

[minnie]

The way I see it with R is that he has constructed a total fantasy life. Who he is, what he does, how he is with people - all a construct, rather than natural. (You'll see what I mean in a few weeks when all the legal drama is over and I am better able to post about the bigger picture.) Therefore, all his dealings are incongruent to his true self. It is ALL a lie. And when the cracks start to show and reality peeks in.........well, just watch out.

*edit* I know this is a bit anti-recovery because I am posting about R. Maybe I'm lying to myself about my own lying.......

[historyteach]

"To get someone else to believe a falsehood is to devalue that person and obtain a sense of superiority or control."

Yes, that one hit me too.
And so did the low self esteem and the impulse disorder.
Each one of them fits.
And it's just too bad. None of it had to be....
Well, thanks for sharing this Gabe. Very interesting reading.

Shalom!

[minnie]

The way I see it now is that lying is all part the wider "game" and I treat it as such. It does me (or anyone else) no good to think "Oh, poor thing, he must have such terrible self-esteem if he has to lie" or "He is lying because he is scared of telling me the truth."

I am always interested in understanding the reasons why, because I have that kind of mind. But that doesn't move me away from the fact that I have a boundary about lying and if someone can't respect that, then they have no place in my life.

[Hopefloats]

Gabe, is there any information on those that believe their own lies? OR maybe I missed it here, and if so I apologize.

I know there is alot of research on "perception"
Through another person's "lens" TO them, what they say is not a lie, if you were to ask them. Because someting "feels" a certain way to that person, it does become their "truth". I have seen this theory challenged.
Thanks...
Hope

[Gabe]

I'll look around Hope.
I think there are some people who believe their own lies.
I also think that is a deeper pathology than we are discussing here.
I don't think the chronic liar believes their own lies at all.
That is where the lack of self-esteem comes in.
I also think it's more than lack of self-esteem.
I really believe this is a compulsion, not unlike addiction.
A person becomes accustomed to lying and those lies just drip off their tongue at a moments notice, for no particular reason.
This leaves people of the truth at a loss.
As in the famous statement "Why would someone lie about something like that?"
Perhaps this is why the program doesn't work for "people of the lie".
It's an honest program and you can't live an honest program when lying has become a habit pattern.