Too smart to stay sober

[Dan]

Humility

"I've never seen anybody who's too dumb to stay sober. But I've met a few people who were too smart." These wise words by an older member sum up what we sometimes see.... people who feel turned off by the program because it seems too simple and involves so many people of ordinary education and backgrounds.
Alcoholism is much like other diseases in the way it strikes all people. Diabetes, for example, victimizes people of all intelligence and education levels. We could never believe that being smart would give us an advantage in dealing with such an illness.

In the same way, the very smart person, has no edge over others in gaining sobriety. In fact, pride in such gifts can be a stumbling block. It can be a barrier to the simple acceptance and surrender needed for success in the 12 Step Program.
We do have many very smart people in AA. They are also wise enough to know that nobody can outsmart John Barleycorn.

We can feel grateful for mental abilities and education that halp us get along in the world.

From the book Walk in Dry Places.

[Phinneas]

Originally Posted by Dan

We can feel grateful for mental abilities and education that halp us get along in the world.

Yep, my edumacation halps me evry day!

[namommy]

I had to reply to this.

When I first got introduced to 12-step programs, I thought they were a cult. I remember thinking "They'll never get me, I'm way to smart for that"

I was so smart, I almost suckered them out of all their white keytags.

[equus]

Humility = the condition of being humble.

Humble means:
hum·ble ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hmbl)
adj. hum·bler, hum·blest

1. Marked by meekness or modesty in behavior, attitude, or spirit; not arrogant or prideful.

2. Showing deferential or submissive respect: a humble apology.

3. Low in rank, quality, or station; unpretentious or lowly: a humble cottage.

Yep - for acceptance and surrender that would be needed.

Is critical evaluation pride? Is dispute arrogance?

[Dan]

Originally Posted by equus

Is critical evaluation pride? Is dispute arrogance?

I certainly don't believe so.
But no matter how critical and methodical I was in evaluating my drinking problem, and how absolutely insistent I was on finding a solution that was totally borne of my own intellect, I failed.
I got way past the point where I could even try to generate arrogance about my condition.
In other words, no amount of synaptic aptitude can ensure my sobriety.
Not drinking ensures my sobriety

[equus]

In other words, no amount of synaptic aptitude can ensure my sobriety.

I can garauntee synaptic changes are relied on in changing any behaviour - don't be so sure your own brain wasn't/isn't involved.

All answers/knowledge/wisdom I could ever claim to hold (hey - it's not much I can run through it) has been stolen or a gift from others. I'm not sure how we can claim any answer comes from entirely within ourselves as even the language we use to form ideas was taught ti us by others. Therefore surely synaptic ability is no more than to seek information and be able to use it, if that is true your own endevours did succeed.

[BarryH]

As someone with many years of sobriety now and of above average intelligence and education, I can tell you that the idea that you can be "too smart" to get sober is also used as a great put-down by people who are envious or jealous. When I was younger this used to hurt a lot, and made me think that AA was somehow cult-like and anti-intellectual. I realize now this is not the case, but sadly, it is true of some members. Please be careful in how you apply this notion.

Some people 'intellectualize' as a defense mechanism and dismiss this program as 'beneath them', as they do with almost any form of help offered, and 'rationalize' away their problems. This is not the same as thinking deeply about the program or recovery, as I try to do. I also realize that if I have been gifted with intelligence then I am meant to use it in the service of others and not as a means of trying to be 'better than'. Bill W. is recognized outside the program as a very intelligent man and stands as a prime example of what I'm saying.

As to the addage "I've never found anyone too stupid to get sober..." I find this insulting, promoting stupidity as it does as almost a virtue and intelligence as almost a vice. Besides, I challenge your sponsor to prove that remark, and define 'stupid' for me in the process. I believe you should substitute the words 'stupid' and 'intelligent' with 'humble' and 'arrogant'.

[Dan]

Originally Posted by equus

I can garauntee synaptic changes are relied on in changing any behaviour - don't be so sure your own brain wasn't/isn't involved.

I spoke of synaptic aptitude, eq, not changes.
But I agree with you on the behavioral angle of it all.

Hi Barry.
Besides, I challenge your sponsor to prove that remark, and define 'stupid' for me in the process. I believe you should substitute the words 'stupid' and 'intelligent' with 'humble' and 'arrogant'.

Is that comment directed at me personally, or simply a general observation?

[Gooch]

Originally Posted by BarryH

As someone with many years of sobriety now and of above average intelligence and education, I can tell you that the idea that you can be "too smart" to get sober is also used as a great put-down by people who are envious or jealous. When I was younger this used to hurt a lot, and made me think that AA was somehow cult-like and anti-intellectual. I realize now this is not the case, but sadly, it is true of some members. Please be careful in how you apply this notion.

Some people 'intellectualize' as a defense mechanism and dismiss this program as 'beneath them', as they do with almost any form of help offered, and 'rationalize' away their problems. This is not the same as thinking deeply about the program or recovery, as I try to do. I also realize that if I have been gifted with intelligence then I am meant to use it in the service of others and not as a means of trying to be 'better than'. Bill W. is recognized outside the program as a very intelligent man and stands as a prime example of what I'm saying.

As to the addage "I've never found anyone too stupid to get sober..." I find this insulting, promoting stupidity as it does as almost a virtue and intelligence as almost a vice. Besides, I challenge your sponsor to prove that remark, and define 'stupid' for me in the process. I believe you should substitute the words 'stupid' and 'intelligent' with 'humble' and 'arrogant'.

Funny thing they told me I ws above average in intelligence and now that I have many years of abstinance, I feel smart enough to question their judgement.


psst .. don't tell anyone I told you so but I think they say that to everyone.

I do agree 100 % with those who used to tell me that my problem was I had no common sense.

The sense of inferiority I felt coupled with an overcompensating egomania led me to have an irrational need to prove that I was smarter than anyone who tried to guide me toward the acquisition of common sense.

No one in AA or NA ever insulted me personally by telling me I was too stupid to recover. I'm quite positive that what they actually said was "There are those who are too smart to get this"

Now if I chose to interpret that as an insinuation that I should become stupid enough to get it, rather than humble enough to tap into the "common sense" of the program, ot was most likely my own arrogance, doubt, and shame that got in my way.

No one ever told me I couldn't recover.... I just wanted to blame my negative self speak that I was in denial of on any convenient target.

[Gooch]

allow me to offer the following

stu·pid ( P ) Pronunciation Key (stpd, sty-)
adj. stu·pid·er, stu·pid·est
Slow to learn or understand; obtuse.
Tending to make poor decisions or careless mistakes.
Marked by a lack of intelligence or care; foolish or careless: a stupid mistake.
Dazed, stunned, or stupefied.
Pointless; worthless: a stupid job.

stupid

adj 1: lacking or marked by lack of intellectual acuity [ant: smart] 2: in a state of mental numbness especially as resulting from shock; "he had a dazed expression on his face"; "lay semiconscious, stunned (or stupefied) by the blow"; "was stupid from fatigue" [syn: dazed, stunned, stupefied, stupid(p)] 3: without much intelligence; "a dull job with lazy and unintelligent co-workers" [syn: unintelligent] [ant: intelligent] n : a person who is not very bright; "The economy, stupid!" [syn: stupid person, dullard, dolt, pudding head, pudden-head, poor fish, pillock]

hmm these seem to follow along nicely with 90 % of my pre recovery symptoms

[Dan]

I was in a band called the Overcompensating Egomaniacs.
We rocked

[Don W]

In most cases, I used My smarts to figure out how to drink. I was so much smarter than the millions of people that couldn't learn this simple lesson on how to drink normal.
I see my behavior in others all the time. The 12 steps were only a course. Once i finished it, I'd be smarter. I had all kinds of very smart things going on in my head. I guess one of the smartest was. " Alcohol isn't my problem, drinking too much of it is. I know if I go to this new bar, and nobody knows me. I can sit and just sip a beer or two and go home. In fact, I'm not sure which was worse. How smart I thought I was, or how dumb I thought others were.

[Five]

“Intellectual pride” as Wilson calls it was a RESULT of my alcoholism. I had concluded that I was bright. But I can’t ever remember this being a dominating force in my alcoholism or my life. It was a way to cope, a way of not getting depressed. It was something that I could hold onto.

In sobriety I see my “intellect” for what it is. I actually look at the facts instead of just believing I am cleverer than everyone else. Which is clearly, according to the facts, not true.

I am glad I don’t have to fret over this anymore – and instead enjoy becoming more intelligent, more knowledgeable, and take great pride in it: it makes life interesting to have a thirst for knowledge, and to translate that back through my personality. My mind is a natural tool and should not be suppressed because I worry that its some hideous part of my character immerging. I don’t really believe my intellect will have anything to do with whether I pick up a drink or not. Maybe I will be proven wrong, but its worth the risk. You cannot amputate what is natural.

Just my thoughts (And I have given this subject a lot of thought)

[Gooch]

In sobriety I see my “intellect” for what it is. I actually look at the facts instead of just believing I am cleverer than everyone else. Which is clearly, according to the facts, not true.

I like the way you phrased that .

[tramp]

then there is the other definition of humility,
being aware of one faults AND assets. it all depends on which definition strikes your fancy.
i have no opinion on this i guess. how do you measure "smart"?
by iq? then i dont know many people in my immediate circle, or expanded circle, as "smart" as i am.
that i continued to abuse myself and everyone around me for some 30 odd years, despite serious and dire consequences pretty much tells me im not as smart as i ( or the psychologists) thought i was. but i am sober!

[nutz]

You can't think your eway into recovery.
It's a living program.lmaf
" My best thinking got me drunk"

mmm.....yeah, it's a spiritual program.
mind, body, and soul......me spirit not in me head.
KEEP AN OPEN MIND.lmaf

It' s a program of ACTION.
Thinking is a REACTION of the brain....such as anger,self pity or
dictatorship.lmaf

NUtZ.....that means, I've gone out of my mind, yes???.lol
To be out of one's mind, dosen't really mean one controls the mind.
But at least the mind is not runing the riot show or in control.

The brain serves the body so the body can servive..that is all.
It's not who I AM. I'm not my thoughts, my job, status...etc
But in a life style/conditioning...you get sucked in into that thinking.lol

Once the spirit is awaken / healed/ remebered/ recognized/accepted.
My spirit lacks nothing , the spirit takes control of destiny or start
decipling the brain to SERVE . BE STILL.lol
Observe how the brain will kick, scream and fight to remain in control.
Generate 1001 fears to keep you in thinking..the cycle of delusions
The brain gets attached or addicted. The brain gets insane not the
spirit. The soul/spirit is free.
LET GO....let go of what ???? thinking perhapes.

Follow your heart and use your head. That's is a great statement.
Are you using your head, or is your head using you?lmaf

Example, I understand music thoery (thinking), which helps me.
But my brain dosn't create music, my spirit dose.
Thinking about it....where dose the notes or melodies arrive from ?

[Don S]

If you change your beliefs, you can change your behavior. To change your beliefs, you change your thinking. That's the premise of behavioral approaches to recovery. So one can indeed think one's way into recovery.
The impression I get from reading the first part of the quote is that it's intended to make us aware that there aren't necessarily any class or educational distinctions in who achieves sobriety. Pull those upper class intellectuals down a peg, I guess--you're just drunks like the rest of us? Fair enough.
But if thinking 'too much' is a barrier to surrender, I say damn the torpedoes and full speed ahead!
Don

[Dan]

I'm almost tempted to say that upper class intellectuals don't have a monopoly on thinking, but I won't.
I did change my beliefs Don.
I went from believing that I could stop drinking/control my drinking/drink without consequences on self will alone to believing that I could accomplish my goal of total abstinence by not relying on self will alone.
That's a behavioral and thought process change, as near as I can understand your definition of such.
So in a sense, some of the actions I took to get and stay sober fit your behavior approach premise.
Who knew...

[Don S]

Welcome to the dark side, my son...

[Dan]

Cute, Don.
The force is with me, you know.

[Greenbug]

Humility is not thinking less of yourself but thinking of yourself less.


When I took the drug and alcohol classes I was really surprised the psychology part was, in essence "we don't know sheet - but if this or this happens you MIGHT try this and this, never commit & Good luck!" The irony in life is really quite amusing and endless when you look for it.

The more I learn, the less I know!

When I see a sign on someone's lawn that reads "Stay off lawn" I don't need to ask anymore "what does that mean?"

[nutz]

Learning/education was a goal to get.
UNlearning....that's challenge and a half.
trash in = trash out

U in the matrix.lol
Keep it simple stupid !!!!!

[Five]

Originally Posted by Dan

I'm almost tempted to say that upper class intellectuals don't have a monopoly on thinking, but I won't.
I did change my beliefs Don.
I went from believing that I could stop drinking/control my drinking/drink without consequences on self will alone to believing that I could accomplish my goal of total abstinence by not relying on self will alone.
That's a behavioral and thought process change, as near as I can understand your definition of such.
So in a sense, some of the actions I took to get and stay sober fit your behavior approach premise.
Who knew...

Thats a belief change Dan. The bit I bolded. Classic CBT.

My old mate Doc Valient described AA in terms of CBT belief change - and it is a working model.

I once BELIEVED that drinking was fine, a good thing to do - now I believe its a complete waste of time, and highly lethal.

With that I get a whole new range of behaviours. It is a bit like brainwashing - but, and after a long time of research, I believe we all need a bit of that. Beliefs are hard feeckkkers to change.

[Dan]

Originally Posted by Five

Thats a belief change Dan. The bit I bolded. Classic CBT.

Of the bit you bolded, there was a word already bolded... alone.
So what you're telling me Mill is that by coming to believe that a power greater than myself could restore me to sanity, I was practicing cognitive behavior therapy.
Who knew...