Loss of Choice. - SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information

Dan · 11-15-2005, 03:59 AM

Freedom

Many alcoholics are vigorous defenders of free choice. We have to concede, however, that our choices are not always limited by the tyranny of others. Our own actions can take away our freedom of choice.
Recovering people in AA have learned that taking even one drink will result in the loss of choice, and it is not just a temporary loss of sobriety that one faces. It's always possible that the person who drinks again may never recover sobriety.

In the same way, other actions represent loss of choice in our lives. A person who cheats, for example, may learn that he or she has no choice over the unpleasant outcomes that follow.

We can protect our freedom of choice by deciding only to take actions that will strengthen such freedom in the future. At no time should we make any choices that rob us of our precious right to choose.

Every action I take today must help me keep favorable options open in the future. My right to choose was restored by AA, and I must help protect it.

From the book Walk in Dry Places.

bartender129 · 11-15-2005, 07:02 AM

People have a choice in their actions. Outcomes are the result of these actions and are not a matter of choice, but rather consequence. And consequences have to be dealt with accordingly. The trick is look closely at the risks and rewards (consequences) of those actions. This way you can make responsible choices that lead, more than likely, to favorable outcomes.

Dan · 11-15-2005, 08:07 AM

Semantic gnat picking, bart...
But I'll play.
People have a choice in their actions.
Seems logical.
If what you are proposing is that the power of choice remains as an immovable constant of the psyche.
I happen to believe that the power of choice is not immune to psychological imbalance, and that such imbalance develops and gets worse as, in my case, alcoholism progresses.
So while the concept of choice is, psychosis often removes one's ability to practice choice.

I propose that the cost and benefit method of analysing actions (consequences) simply becomes something that is out of reach at some point in an individual's alcoholic condition.
Be it a singular, isolated event being misjudged, or a clear behavior shift.
A line gets crossed, and the power of choice ceases to be a viable alternative for some of us.

equus · 11-15-2005, 08:30 AM

I used to teach 'choices' to kids with autism using applied behavioural analysis. Believe it or not it's a learned behaviour, remove choices and 'learned helplessness' (google it if you want) can develop.

It's a word (like many) we flip around and take for granted, reather than a skill we see as developing through life. Do you choose which side of the road to drive? Is that a real choice? And then there's the issue of being aware of your options, you may choose between an apple or blackcurrent drink, then later find you could have had orange - did you choose apple over orange?

We learn to percieve where we have choices, and our perceptions differ. Our perception of choice also effects our motivation to choose in the first place.

bartender129 · 11-15-2005, 08:34 AM

Not trying to gnat pick Dan.
Semantic maybe, but youâ€™ll find that semantics are very important in cognitive approaches

. I donâ€™t think what you describe is the loss of the power of choice, but rather an increase in the propensity to choose actions with negative outcomes or to ignore the potential consequences completely. â€œMind alteringâ€ chemicals tend to do that. This effect (I have heard it called a case of the â€œfuggitsâ€) is a cost of drinking that should be considered when doing a cost / benefit analysis of oneâ€™s drinking behavior.

bartender129 · 11-15-2005, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by equus

It's a word (like many) we flip around and take for granted, reather than a skill we see as developing through life. Do you choose which side of the road to drive? Is that a real choice? And then there's the issue of being aware of your options, you may choose between an apple or blackcurrent drink, then later find you could have had orange - did you choose apple over orange?

Speaking of gnat picking

!

Yes, like all societal rules, you get to choose which side of the road to drive on and face the consequences of doing it differently from the legal side

.

As for the drink analogy (what the heck is â€œblackcurrent?â€), like the tree falling in the woods, does a choice exist if you are unaware of it?

It is Tuesday morning here and I am still recovering from a Philadelphia Eagles debacle of a loss last night. I canâ€™t get that deep right now.

Dan · 11-15-2005, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bartender129

It is Tuesday morning here and I am still recovering from a Philadelphia Eagles debacle of a loss last night. I canâ€™t get that deep right now.

A man needs priorities in sobriety

Heartbreaking loss indeed for you Eagles football types.

Yeah bart, not so much gnat picking as semantics, you're right.
Now, as far is gnits, that's a whole other story.

equus · 11-15-2005, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Speaking of gnat picking !

I'm a self confessed gnat picker!! So there! It's a weird experience teaching a kid how to choose, a bit like teaching them to categorise or distinguish between same and different, not to mention how fundemental that is to everything else!! - I ended up learning more than I taught.

bartender129 · 11-15-2005, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan

A man needs priorities in sobriety

Heartbreaking loss indeed for you Eagles football types.

Yeah bart, not so much gnat picking as semantics, you're right.
Now, as far is gnits, that's a whole other story.

I googled Gnit, and it came back with this ugly sucker:

Quote:

Real Name: Gnit

Identity/Class: Demon

Occupation: Personal nightmare of Nightmare

Group Membership: None

Affiliations: Nightmare

Enemies: Nightmare

Known Relatives: None

Aliases: None

Base of Operations: The Dimension of Dreams

First Appearance: Dr. Strange II#53 (June, 1982)

Powers/Abilities: Gnit could cast minor spells allowing himself and others to view events occurring in other locations in space and time. It also possessed six arms, and could not be slain until Nightmare's personal nightmare had been overcome.

I'm not picking anything with that! I'll stick with the gnats!

bartender129 · 11-16-2005, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FaeryQueen

For me, it comes down to recognizing the best possible action I could take at this very moment for my own well-being...and then doing it. When I work, pay my taxes, do that pile of laundry, cut out the red meat, take vitamins, exercise, rest etc..., not only do I overcome my own inertia, I am able to be of use to others...to truly love others...because I truly love myself....

Chop wood, carry water.
Zen Proverb

I found this quote in another thread, and I think it speaks perfectly to what I was saying about actions and choices. Thank you FQ and very well stated.

tyler · 11-16-2005, 06:37 AM

I think the matter of choice is something that is a very important point. Not even the most desperate alcoholic has had a drink forced down their throat, in my personal case, I still had to make several choices, I had to call someone to find my drug, get the money together, go over and get it and finally put it to my lips and smoke it. At any point in that process I could have made the choice to do something different. Would it have been a dificult choice, darn right, impossible, no. IMHO this is what we need to recognize. Just because there is a bottle in front of you does not mean you have to drink it. Yes, you are playing with fire to make the choice to have that bottle in front of you in the first place, but the battle is not lost at that point. And by the way, I pefer splitting hairs to picking gnit/gnats!!! Take care all!

Five · 11-16-2005, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyler

I think the matter of choice is something that is a very important point. Not even the most desperate alcoholic has had a drink forced down their throat, in my personal case, I still had to make several choices, I had to call someone to find my drug, get the money together, go over and get it and finally put it to my lips and smoke it. At any point in that process I could have made the choice to do something different. Would it have been a dificult choice, darn right, impossible, no. IMHO this is what we need to recognize. Just because there is a bottle in front of you does not mean you have to drink it. Yes, you are playing with fire to make the choice to have that bottle in front of you in the first place, but the battle is not lost at that point. And by the way, I pefer splitting hairs to picking gnit/gnats!!! Take care all!

agreed.

11-15-2005, 03:59 AM	#1 (permalink)
Dan Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,710	Loss of Choice. Freedom Many alcoholics are vigorous defenders of free choice. We have to concede, however, that our choices are not always limited by the tyranny of others. Our own actions can take away our freedom of choice. Recovering people in AA have learned that taking even one drink will result in the loss of choice, and it is not just a temporary loss of sobriety that one faces. It's always possible that the person who drinks again may never recover sobriety. In the same way, other actions represent loss of choice in our lives. A person who cheats, for example, may learn that he or she has no choice over the unpleasant outcomes that follow. We can protect our freedom of choice by deciding only to take actions that will strengthen such freedom in the future. At no time should we make any choices that rob us of our precious right to choose. Every action I take today must help me keep favorable options open in the future. My right to choose was restored by AA, and I must help protect it. From the book Walk in Dry Places.

11-16-2005, 06:37 AM	#11 (permalink)
tyler Not all better, getting better Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: The Beautiful Inner Banks of NC Posts: 1,600 Blog Entries: 8	I think the matter of choice is something that is a very important point. Not even the most desperate alcoholic has had a drink forced down their throat, in my personal case, I still had to make several choices, I had to call someone to find my drug, get the money together, go over and get it and finally put it to my lips and smoke it. At any point in that process I could have made the choice to do something different. Would it have been a dificult choice, darn right, impossible, no. IMHO this is what we need to recognize. Just because there is a bottle in front of you does not mean you have to drink it. Yes, you are playing with fire to make the choice to have that bottle in front of you in the first place, but the battle is not lost at that point. And by the way, I pefer splitting hairs to picking gnit/gnats!!! Take care all! __________________ Peace and Love, Tyler *"I used to do a little but a little wouldn't do it so a little got more and more. I just keep tryin' to get a little better, said a little better than before."* Mr. Brownstone G-n-R Heck is where people go who don't believe in Gosh

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11-15-2005, 07:02 AM	#2 (permalink)
bartender129 learning Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Where I need to be Posts: 281	People have a choice in their actions. Outcomes are the result of these actions and are not a matter of choice, but rather consequence. And consequences have to be dealt with accordingly. The trick is look closely at the risks and rewards (consequences) of those actions. This way you can make responsible choices that lead, more than likely, to favorable outcomes.

11-15-2005, 08:07 AM	#3 (permalink)
Dan Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,710	Semantic gnat picking, bart... But I'll play. People have a choice in their actions. Seems logical. If what you are proposing is that the power of choice remains as an immovable constant of the psyche. I happen to believe that the power of choice is not immune to psychological imbalance, and that such imbalance develops and gets worse as, in my case, alcoholism progresses. So while the concept of choice is, psychosis often removes one's ability to practice choice. I propose that the cost and benefit method of analysing actions (consequences) simply becomes something that is out of reach at some point in an individual's alcoholic condition. Be it a singular, isolated event being misjudged, or a clear behavior shift. A line gets crossed, and the power of choice ceases to be a viable alternative for some of us.

11-15-2005, 08:30 AM	#4 (permalink)
equus Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: uk Posts: 3,055	I used to teach 'choices' to kids with autism using applied behavioural analysis. Believe it or not it's a learned behaviour, remove choices and 'learned helplessness' (google it if you want) can develop. It's a word (like many) we flip around and take for granted, reather than a skill we see as developing through life. Do you choose which side of the road to drive? Is that a real choice? And then there's the issue of being aware of your options, you may choose between an apple or blackcurrent drink, then later find you could have had orange - did you choose apple over orange? We learn to percieve where we have choices, and our perceptions differ. Our perception of choice also effects our motivation to choose in the first place.

11-15-2005, 08:34 AM	#5 (permalink)
bartender129 learning Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Where I need to be Posts: 281	Not trying to gnat pick Dan. Semantic maybe, but youâ€™ll find that semantics are very important in cognitive approaches . I donâ€™t think what you describe is the loss of the power of choice, but rather an increase in the propensity to choose actions with negative outcomes or to ignore the potential consequences completely. â€œMind alteringâ€ chemicals tend to do that. This effect (I have heard it called a case of the â€œfuggitsâ€) is a cost of drinking that should be considered when doing a cost / benefit analysis of oneâ€™s drinking behavior.

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