The "ism" in alcoholism
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I think if someone credits something or someone as responsible for her sobriety, who are we to claim deeper knowledge of what's going on in her head, and insist that some other thing must be responsible instead? Some drugs do help, but cravings are rarely the whole picture, there are lifestyle changes and time for the brain to heal from chemical dependency and return to normal. And perhaps, for some, a need for a sense of belonging and camaraderie that they've been missing, or that has revolved around alcohol. Perhaps even a need for a sense of spirituality or even religion. These things are no less real than drugs.
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I think that no matter how one chooses to get sober they get to take the credit for themselves. They are they ones who made the choice to quit and make use of whatever tools or program or drugs or whatever. If they do the Steps or make a BP or fly solo or SR or pharmaceuticals etc, they made themselves responsible for the harm they were causing themselves and others and did what they had to do to get better. It's not easy and it requires a lot of change and self reflection and self discipline.
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Originally Posted by JeffreyAK 
That site was really important to me in early recovery, because it gave power to me and validated my anger at being pushed into an addiction recovery philosophy that I could not accept. That opened my eyes to the idea that there are indeed other paths. It's good that it is archived, even if the site itself is gone, and I'm sure it helps validate other people too. It presents a harsh one-sided caricature, of course, but factual objectivity is not really the point, it's whether or not it helps you stop drinking.
But one thing that took time for me to see is, Mr. Orange is a complete angry fist-shaking zealot, every bit as much of a zealot as the people who relentlessly criticized him and threatened him and filed lawsuits against him. How anyone can maintain the burning anger it must take to compile all that stuff, is beyond me, and a bit sad. At some point I got tired of the zealotry. That's one of the reasons I disengaged from support groups, my tolerance for zealots of all kinds wore thin. I find much more peace and, yes, serenity, in accepting that we're all different and that's perfectly ok. Life would be boring if we were all the same. And, I'm no better than anyone else for following the path I followed, and people following other paths are no worse.
But one thing that took time for me to see is, Mr. Orange is a complete angry fist-shaking zealot, every bit as much of a zealot as the people who relentlessly criticized him and threatened him and filed lawsuits against him. How anyone can maintain the burning anger it must take to compile all that stuff, is beyond me, and a bit sad. At some point I got tired of the zealotry. That's one of the reasons I disengaged from support groups, my tolerance for zealots of all kinds wore thin. I find much more peace and, yes, serenity, in accepting that we're all different and that's perfectly ok. Life would be boring if we were all the same. And, I'm no better than anyone else for following the path I followed, and people following other paths are no worse.
They are the flip side of the same coin. I avoid both whenever possible.
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Join Date: Jun 2014
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Originally Posted by zenchaser
Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest There are MANY people who follow the program and do the steps who do not recover. The stats are less than 5%. That's a lot of unfortunates who just seem to be born that way, incapable of grasping AA's simple faith based religious program. As far as it not being fear based...... people are constantly told that if they don't keep coming back they will relapse and die of their incurable disease.
If you leave A.A., your fate is jails, institutions, or death.
Keep Coming Back... It Works If You Work It, You Die If You Don't. So Work It You're Worth It!
Your best thinking got you here.
Don't go in your head alone. It's a dangerous neighborhood.
It's Our Way or the Die Way.
Unless each AA member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps of recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant. We must obey certain principles or we die.
I could go on......
If you leave A.A., your fate is jails, institutions, or death.
Keep Coming Back... It Works If You Work It, You Die If You Don't. So Work It You're Worth It!
Your best thinking got you here.
Don't go in your head alone. It's a dangerous neighborhood.
It's Our Way or the Die Way.
Unless each AA member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps of recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant. We must obey certain principles or we die.
I could go on......
However, I get what you`re saying and agree there are AA members who appear to work a solid program yet go back out. They have a sponsor, work the program, go to meetings ect yet end up drinking.
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There have been multiple reminders by Dee and Anna to keep this discussion a positive one that does not deride or dwell on negative aspects of any specific program. Posts have been removed, and the thread will be closed if it continues.
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What I really like about AVRT is that it focusing solely on the behaviour and that you get to stay yourself, you get to return to your authentic self. It doesn't require treatment for your whole family and it doesn't label your family as enablers or in any way responsible for the drinkers bad behaviour. I find that really refreshing!
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Location: Maine
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On earth, in every walk of life, every family, every religion, every school, every sobriety program (the list goes on and on) you will find extreme ends of the spectrum. If, in any of my prior posts i offended, angered, hurt, or made anyone uncomfortable I apologize. I have a hard time sometimes when I see negativity about AA because the program, and my working it is the core essence of who I am today. Will everyone have the same experience I've had? No. But...........they might. Each and every person on this board has the right to seek and find whatever tools work for them that render them sober and honestly happy. There's only one way for them to find out. If they try and don't like it, so be it.
Whatever your questions are about a program the best way to find out is to try it for yourself. You will hear lots of opinions on this board. No matter where you go there are extremes in the spectrum. If someone posts that they tried AA and it wasn't for them I will ask if maybe they've tried a different group. Maybe RR or AVRT is for them. Who am I to say? How do you know unless you try?
If you've found a program that works for you, be it AA, RR, AVRT, or whatever it is, I stand, applaud you, and celebrate your recovery.
Acceptance, understanding, compassion, love, and joy is the experience that I've had in AA.
.........and, there are many more like me.
Whatever your questions are about a program the best way to find out is to try it for yourself. You will hear lots of opinions on this board. No matter where you go there are extremes in the spectrum. If someone posts that they tried AA and it wasn't for them I will ask if maybe they've tried a different group. Maybe RR or AVRT is for them. Who am I to say? How do you know unless you try?
If you've found a program that works for you, be it AA, RR, AVRT, or whatever it is, I stand, applaud you, and celebrate your recovery.
Acceptance, understanding, compassion, love, and joy is the experience that I've had in AA.
.........and, there are many more like me.
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So, another day, another post removed from this thread.
There are no more warnings coming. The next negative word by anyone will shut down this thread for good and result in Warnings for the member/members involved.
I'm sure you guys don't care, but for goodness sake, I'm on vacation this week. And, I'm spending time removing posts from threads that you all know very well, should not be posted.
There are no more warnings coming. The next negative word by anyone will shut down this thread for good and result in Warnings for the member/members involved.
I'm sure you guys don't care, but for goodness sake, I'm on vacation this week. And, I'm spending time removing posts from threads that you all know very well, should not be posted.
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Hi LadyBlue, you certainly haven't offended me, and I hope I haven't offended you or anyone else. I'm thrilled you eventually found groups that provided you with acceptance, understanding,compassion, love and joy, that's awesome! To be honest...l'm a wee bit jealous, seriously, I am.
It's a Bank Holiday here in the UK and I'm busy, so I'll reply to your PM later, but just want to say, I've enjoyed our PM communications. I think you'll make an amazing sponsor.
I'd hate this thread to be closed, I've great respect for every poster, each of whom has eloquently set out their experiences.
Peace to all.
It's a Bank Holiday here in the UK and I'm busy, so I'll reply to your PM later, but just want to say, I've enjoyed our PM communications. I think you'll make an amazing sponsor.
I'd hate this thread to be closed, I've great respect for every poster, each of whom has eloquently set out their experiences.
Peace to all.
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Join Date: Feb 2016
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Dear Anna, I for one do care about you. I think you're a fantastic Moderator and you shine light throughout SR with your posts. I'm sorry you're having to spend your vacation time Moderating and sorting us out.
Plus, I adore your avatar, I have two Siamese cats, a blue and a lilac point, although I'm not sure if your avatar cats are Siamese, or another Oriental. But yes, I do care about you, and your cats. That's a little off topic, but we're all human, with hearts.
Plus, I adore your avatar, I have two Siamese cats, a blue and a lilac point, although I'm not sure if your avatar cats are Siamese, or another Oriental. But yes, I do care about you, and your cats. That's a little off topic, but we're all human, with hearts.
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What I also like about AVRT is that you are told that you have a healthy brain and that your problem is that you like pleasure so much that you went and got yourself addicted. Only you can decide whether or not you are addicted and whether or not you want to do something about it. If you do then you make one decision that is final and for life and then all you do is practice AVRT to deal with you Addictive Voice which is going to try to talk you out of your decision. You take your control back. Once the BP is made you deal with the aftermath of your addiction. You and you alone are responsible for staying quit and cleaning your life up. It is all about self empowerment or as Tatsy once put it won't power.
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Join Date: Feb 2016
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Yes Zen, this is an informative thread and getting it locked down, won't help folks who might stumble upon it in the future. Folks who may have questions to present to the posters on this thread.
Yes, indeed, I prefer won't power to will power, because it's far more powerful.
I was excercising my two dogs today, as always. They're just so extremely happy and living in the moment. My dogs exist in the now, they don't regret the past, nor worry about the future. That's a great place to be, the present!
AVRT has taught me to live in the moment, any negative thoughts that pop up, either reflecting back on the past, or worrying and projecting into the future - are dismissed for what they are, automatic, lower brain negativism, which is instantly dismissed by my higher brain cognition. That's why I'm doing so well in sobriety, it's empowering. Any program or method or support or technique, used to reach the state I experience now, is to be embraced.
Yes, indeed, I prefer won't power to will power, because it's far more powerful.
I was excercising my two dogs today, as always. They're just so extremely happy and living in the moment. My dogs exist in the now, they don't regret the past, nor worry about the future. That's a great place to be, the present!
AVRT has taught me to live in the moment, any negative thoughts that pop up, either reflecting back on the past, or worrying and projecting into the future - are dismissed for what they are, automatic, lower brain negativism, which is instantly dismissed by my higher brain cognition. That's why I'm doing so well in sobriety, it's empowering. Any program or method or support or technique, used to reach the state I experience now, is to be embraced.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,109
I also really agree with RR's message that the drinking was the problem and not me. That there's nothing wrong with my character and ego and personality. My shortcomings didn't make me drink but rather my drinking was causing the shortcomings. That I don't have to live in a perpetual state of recovery. It can just be over. How fabulous is that? I don't have to live in a state of fear or uncertainty about people, places, and things. I can simply move on.
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
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Originally Posted by zenchaser
That I don't have to live in a perpetual state of recovery. It can just be over. How fabulous is that? I don't have to live in a state of fear or uncertainty about people, places, and things. I can simply move on.
that is a pretty good description of my experience living the steps. I don't buy that nonsense about eternal recovery or powerlessness over people places and things that seems to have permeated the fellowship. I call it miraculous, but fabulous is a good word too.
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Join Date: Jun 2013
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Originally Posted by Gottalife
Hi Zen,
that is a pretty good description of my experience living the steps. I don't buy that nonsense about eternal recovery or powerlessness over people places and things that seems to have permeated the fellowship. I call it miraculous, but fabulous is a good word too.
that is a pretty good description of my experience living the steps. I don't buy that nonsense about eternal recovery or powerlessness over people places and things that seems to have permeated the fellowship. I call it miraculous, but fabulous is a good word too.
I'm just glad we're all here working together on a common goal. There's a ton of ways to push a boulder up a mountain but the more people working together the better.
Anna, I'm sorry you had to come here yesterday. I hope you enjoy the rest of your vacation
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