Boleo

https://www.ted.com/talks/johann_har...ng?language=en

Redmayne

An interesting thread, not discounting the fact that in the absence of further empirical evidence, it's presumably based on your perception?

Balanced against my own and I'm sure many others recovery followed by prolonged and lasting sobriety... whatever path or program we chose.

'Man is not disturbed by things but his view (perception) of them' - Epictetus.

freshstart57

Did you watch the TED talk linked in Boleo's post, Red? Boleo was not casting aspersions on you or your recovery, despite the provocative thread title. He was actually quoting the speaker, Johann Hari, as this is the title of his lecture. The one in the link.

Epictetus seems to be spot on once again.

Boleo

Not my perception at all. Johann Hari's words not mine.

Not that I agree with all of it. Just a new and interesting take on a subject where much that has been in the past is archaic. The most interesing part IMO, is the Portugal findings.

Layali

I just feel like there is a huge genetic component that is not talked about. It is a really interesting talk though, and I've read the research that suggests this.

I just want to know - take two people, brought up in the same terrible enviroment. One becomes an addict, the other one doesn't. Why?

What about those people who did have healthy enviroments, deep bonds with people, faith, family, friends, hobbies, etc....and then still used?

What about someone in that situation who has been sober for years, someone gives them an alcoholic drink instead of a virgin by mistake, and after that...they relapse....spiral into addiction again.

So I think there's a huge genetic component that's missed here.

But I also agree that bonding, enviroment, etc. is very important and can deter a lot of people from using in the first place. Maybe it can make it easier for them to quit again, after using? I'm not sure. The Portugal experiment seems to point to yes. But then again - what about the 5 percent? Why did they continue using? Maybe they truly had a genetic addiction....

The brain is really complex. Some of it's drives are very strong - they have evolved to overrun every other thought - to keep you alive. The drives for food, sex, pleasure....they're meant to keep us alive. But if they're hijacked, then what? It's pretty hard to overcome those urges with rational thought. Which is why rehabs and detoxes are needed for so many people.

So..... this is all very interesting. I just now wish they'd go more into the genetic part of it all. (BTW I was in hospital given morphine and dilaudid - and when I came out, given more strong pain pills. And yes, that is when I did relapse - with alcohol!! But then again... a lot of terrible things happened around that time. So it's hard to know whether or not I would have relapsed.... I think that yes, I probably would have, even if my life was peachy. But I have no way to know)

Redmayne

I suffer from alcoholism, whether it's inherent or genetic, I don't know on the other hand, my sister , who is five years older than I suffers from Autism Spectrum Disorder, whilst I have been formally assessed as having high intelligence with the accompanying degree of sensitivity and emotional intelligence...which makes me a highly rational individual displaying no signs of autism. Which in my drinking days had me as a 'high functioning alcoholic', able to navigate my way through life. I hasten to add, this is much improved since I stopped drinking.

I do know those addicted to anything, including alcohol suffer from a mental obsession.

Whilst those who suffer from alcoholism suffer from a two fold illness/disease, comprising of a mental obsession and a physical allergy to alcohol. Which is not a vice or addiction. Perfectly described by Dr.Silkworth in ,'The Doctor's Opinion' and Chapter 3,'More About Alcoholism' in the book,'Alcoholics Anonymous.'

Both of which are expanded on in an excellent, clearly understandable manner in,'Charlie & Joe's: Big Book Study Meeting' now available both online and commercially in recording and book form.

All of which helped me understand and recover from my drinking, accepting I will always have alcoholism just as I will always have my high intelligence, as part of me... it's all part of me...remembering I didn't ask for any of it, especially the alcoholism.

NoelleR

I remember when this original 'rat park' study (by Alexander) was done, and written about, in the late 70's and 80's. It didn't draw any professional discussion and funding was dropped. In further studies, nobody has been able to reproduce its findings. In at least one of these studies both caged and "park" rats showed a decreased preference for morphine, suggesting a genetic difference. Yes, environment may be a factor in addiction, but a cause.....?

(o:

Boleo

I had drinking buddies who used to drink as much as I did, as often as I did and got in as much trouble as I did for years (some 10+ years). Yet, when marriage, having children or health issuses called for them to quit or moderate... they did it... no problem. Which begs the question, where they even alcoholics in the first place?

I suspect there is a genetic component as well. Yet, when it comes to the solution part of the equation, some respond to a psycholigical solution while others (like me) don't. I know that I am in the minority, but only a spiritual solution works for me. Such is the nature of acoholism. Some have ALCOHOL-ism while others have alcohol-ISM. Go figure...

greens

I love this video. I don't feel like he's leaving other stuff out because it doesn't also play an important role in addiction but just simply he is trying to focus on this new angle that we haven't heard about much.

Redmayne

The interesting thing about this thread is that whilst everything we know about addiction may be wrong, it fails to make the distinction between the fact that of all those generally referred to as 'alcoholics', 90% includes those who suffer from addiction to alcohol, whilst the remaining 10% suffer from alcoholism.

Which is not a vice nor an addiction, but a two-fold disease/illness comprising of a mental obsession AND a physical allergy, addiction simply comprising of a mental obsession.

From which it's safe to assume that all those who contributed to the book 'Alcoholics Anonymous' including Dr.Silkworth, together with people like Charlie Parmley, Joe McQuany, Clancy Imislund et al, knew exactly what they were taking about when it came to alcoholism.

Not least Clancy's sponsor who, early in his recovery pointed out that if his problem was alcoholism, his problem wasn't alcohol.

Why? Because alcohol is just but a symptom of the disease/illness, hence the very logical conclusion that the only respite from the self destructive symptom (alcohol) was and still is, absolute abstinence from alcohol!

You can discuss, debate, argue the pros and cons of addiction to anything, drugs, alcohol, etc. but in the case of addiction and alcoholism that salient fact remains and is as true today as it ever was.

Along with the fact that in either case, for those who fail to recover, run the risk, of that failure proving fatal!

That said, alcoholism is sometimes referred to as an illness of ignorance, a level of which seems to regrettably, raised it's ugly head on here...

silentrun

I really liked what he had to say. I watch that show intervention and will see people threaten to cut the addict completely out of their lives if they don't accept help. If a person needs to do that in order to protect themselves then they absolutely should. I object to it being done as a means to an end though. I'm being shunned as a manipulation tactic for religious reasons and completely understand how that could be horribly damaging to someone in the grips of addiction and self hatred.

Gottalife

Well, that was interesting. It raises a few questions in my mind. I agree with the idea of connection, though I couldn't find it through scientific means.

Sober or drunk I would behave exactly as the rats did who were connected. I never would take the drug, by choice.

Chemical hooks? Cigarettes, benzos all thought to be highly addictive substances. The drug world runs on hooking people into dependence and prostitution to support a habit. They hang around schools, give free samples etc, to recruit their customers.

The patient who takes morphine for physical pain is quite different to someone who takes it just for fun, or is forced to take it. Once the pain is manageable, the need for morphine is removed. I think this is the concept of medication.

But if chemical hooks do not exist, that might explain why some people become addicted to no substance based things like shopping, or gambling.

Perhaps the addiction is in the person, not the substance. This should ring alarm bells if it is true because it means that all substances, addictive or non addictive in their chemical nature, will be addictive if an addictive person uses them to fix their "connection".

I am not sure If I agree with the "love" them sober approach. I had to have some motivation from within, and a soft external environment did not provide it. In fact it made me worse. There were some hard knocks involved in me getting sober. I get what he says about intervention not working. It's a matter of timing, and my timing, like everything else, was well out of sync with the society in which I existed.

Powerless1957

--------------------------------------------
I´ve always been under the impression that the disorder was not an allergy? I seem to remember a vague pamphlet issued by AA in 1975 that dismissed at as an allergy because of medical evidence to the contrary - that was 40 years ago..
An allergy produces an abnormal reaction after consuming alcohol mostly because of the ingredients such as wheat , rye, hops etc
There is another allergy known as flushing reaction which affects people of mostly asian anscestry.
The way i look at it - if you give an alcoholic booze, what other reaction would you expect?
Countless tests have been done over the years proving that if you give alcohol to an alcoholic diguised in either another drink or food without them knowing, there are no allergic consequences..

TheGamer

Responding to op's link:

Saw this awhile ago - just a big fan of TED Talks - and I completely agreed and empathized with the speakers argument. He was rational, logical and to the point: we're doing drug laws all wrong, and making people suffer because of it.

The fact that he was even allowed to speak, gives me a good feeling because you know dang well that they're not just gonna let any person speak on the TED Stage without knowing they're not full of it (unless the point was to see how full of it they were, like the whole Edward Snowden thing when the NSA responded on TED Talks, Live).

Thanks!

stevieg46

Haven't watched it yet will watch it tomorrow but going by the comments there seems to be opposing viewpoints .

Genetics ? my father was the one of the eldest in his family of 13 he had an elder sister and younger brother who were alcoholic and he himself was alcoholic and was a ''dry drunk '' in AA for 40 yrs .

I had two younger brothers one deceased none were alcoholic , we had same parents , went to same schools wore same clothes , ate the same food , yet I the oldest am alcoholic .

I have two children a son and daughter , my son had problems with drugs and alcohol for over 26 years, he is now clean and sober for near 5 years and has had a''spiritual awakening , my daughter can take a good drink without any problem whatsoever .

My father was near eldest , I was eldest , my son is eldest ? my fathers name was Stevie , I am Stevie , my son is Stevie , my grandson was born 18 yrs ago I asked my son if he was naming him Stevie ? '' he said no ******* way ha ha .

On a serious note alcoholism ''does not come in bottles '' it comes in ''people '' if it came in bottles ? then everyone who drinks would be in danger of becoming alcoholic

Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .
words are easy music is a lot harder .

TheGamer

So basically that's a "tl;dr" type of response? Because you're not actually addressing anything that has to do with the video. But it's good that you're willing to speak your mind even if you won't hear out the opposition.

The experiment in the video showed:

When mice were used for testing 'addiction' to drugs, like cocaine or heroin, they were given two water bottles inside of their cage, one laced with the drug and the other, plain water(Hsub2 O).

In most cases, the rats preferred the water laced with the drug. This experiment led to a lot of the thinking we have today.

But, someone tried adding a variable to the equation. For you see, this is like testing addiction in a prisoner: someone in a cage. Instead, they put these water bottle set-ups throughout a 'mouse playground' of sorts, that includes tunnels, multiple rooms, the things mice enjoy doing in nature. In every room, those pairs of bottled water (with one laced with cocaine or heroin, the other plain Hsub2 O) were the only sources of water and color coded I believe. What they found is, the mice that appeared to be living a happy, healthier life, would usually try the laced water, feel the effects as being sick, and then they always drank from the other, clean water bottle there on out. Not all mice did this though, ones that were socially repressed? They killed themselves in those playgrounds. So I think they are trying to say, "Why are we not considering environment as well?"

stevieg46

Hi Gamer I am not in opposition I fully intend to watch it as I am very interested in the subject , I was only commenting on the comments (grin ).

Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006.
words are easy music is a lot harder .

TheGamer

Well the fact that you still say addiction means you're in opposition. I don't use the word 'addiction' anymore, because it's a misnomer. I use dependency or abuse as terms when describing the technical aspects of recovery. Addiction is a term that comfortably fit with social and cultural standards, and it's gonna take a long time for people to accept it. None probably will if they hear it coming from me. But, I've lived with contradictions my whole life so it's okay.

I understand your comments on the comments responding to my comment (grin )

stevieg46

Hi Gamer you have lost me , I never used the word addiction or addict I used alcoholic or alcoholism , I do not ever say I am an addict , I believe alcoholism is a disease . '' mind is like a parachute it only functions when its open '' I also never oppose , I may have a different point of view . take care.

Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006.
words are easy music is much harder .

TheGamer

Alcoholism assumes addiction, it's all the same. I'd rather not get into it with you. I managed to stay sober because I was able to avoid labels like 'addict' (or your case, 'alcoholic'), it's just two words for the same thing, dependency. Glad to hear I'm not the only one on SR that keeps a open mind to perspectives. Perception is almost as valuable as information, or intelligence. Perception can save you where smarts and know how won't.