Redmayne

Appreciating the suggestion that,'once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic' which I'd like to think, in my case refers to my inherent alcoholism and not my consumption of alcohol.

Which ceased seven years ago...albeit I accept I will never be free of alcoholism, the only cure for which is total abstinence from alcohol. Which, in turn, in my recovery, plays no part in my life now although I'm obviously aware of its existence and the part it plays in the lives of others, with which I take no issue.


I'm now faced with the question, when does sobriety, not least that of a prolonged nature, overtake recovery?

anattaboy

For me it was 24 hrs. after I laid down the booze. Others of course disagree but everything is just life now. My dis-ease is in permanent remission. My life is good and I have much more than a snowball's chance in hell of success (at problem solving) by JUST NOT DRINKING. A historic moment for me.

Boleo

IMO sobriety never overtakes recovery. It is the other way around - sobriety is a byproduct of recovery. The instant I had the Spiritual Awakening as described on page 84-85 of the AA Big Book, I was done managing my sobriety in any way, shape or form.

I know that it was a Spiritual Awaking because it occurred just after I spent 5 months in rehab where I fantasized about drinking every single day I was there. One second before the Awakening, I was constantly obsessed with getting my next drink. One second after my Awakening, drinking had zero attraction to me. Since that moment, I have not thought about drinking even once, and much to my surprise, I have not thought about not-drinking even once.

Today I stay spiritually fit ODAAT and sobriety is the reciprocal result of the state of mind I maintain. As far as I am concerned - sobriety is no longer any of my business and I trust that I am better off that way. Sobriety is now my default mode of existence and I must now focus on moving forward from there ODAAT. It is by no means one-and-done.

MesaMan

'I'm now faced with the question, when does sobriety, not least that of a prolonged nature, overtake recovery?'

A: When you decide as much. And, I've no intention of being 'flip' with that answer.

One Fella here posted a while ago that he felt like a non-Drinker [as opposed to being 'just' Sober] at about 3 years in. Subjective as all such answers are, his made sense to me. Having traveled Int'l quite a bit, his answer was like what I would imagine the Time Lapse req'd would be to start to feel 'at Home' while moving to a new Country.

Per my own implementation of my 'Big Plan', I don't drink anymore. Done deal. I don't do 'ODAAT', or consider any negotiable POV that even remotely permits any different outcome. So, I'm Sober and Recovered now. Other Recovery Models that can't integrate this Reality, and question it, are Models I'll discuss civilly. But, they have no bearing on my permanent Sobriety. I see here on SR that 'my' approach works for others, but it need only work for me.

We continue to grow [hopefully]. However, I would have done that with solely a Sober past. So, I don't hang the ultimate prospect of being 'fully Recovered' in front of me, like some Carrot on a Stick unattainably hung in front of a Donkey. Future attainment is not padlocked to my Drinking past. That's past.

My Tagline is: I don't kick Puppies. I don't hit Women. And, I don't Drink.

I moved 'picking up again' into the Category of 'things I just don't do' partially listed above. We all practice such Behaviors. Steal Earrings from another Gal that are laying out on her Counter Top? Unthinkable to most all Gals. Siphon off Money from my Parent's Funds or Estate when I had Power-of-Attorney over it? Unthinkable. Period.

Picking up again is just another Behavior off the Table for me. Even if this POV is only some sort of Mental 'Sleight-of-Hand', it works swimmingly for me!

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Redmayne

Sobriety, or at least the thought of it, began to overtake my recovery, when it finally penetrated. I'm not 'the brightest apple in the barrel', my 'keen, alcoholic mind', that, if I'm an alcoholic, my problem is alcoholism not alcohol and the more I started living in the solution instead of the problem, the better my recovery and subsequently, the quality of both it and sobriety, would become!

JeffreyAK

I'm curious, after 7 years, why do you label yourself an alcoholic? Every dictionary definition you can find will define an alcoholic as an active addict, which you're not. I've never understood why some folks wish to wear the scarlett "A" on their shirt, years after they took their last drink. At some point you're just a person who doesn't drink, but with the wisdom of someone who used to drink and then quit.

Andante

Well, for one thing, dictionary definitions are of limited utility. They serve only to define words with other words. Context matters.

Mainly, though, it’s because a non-drinker with a history of alcoholism is not the same thing as a non-drinker who has never been drunk. Their brains are different. A brain which has undergone the process of addiction to alcohol (which we'll call "alcoholism" for the sake of convenience) can never revert to the condition it was in pre-alcoholism. The "wiring" has been permanently altered.

A "person who doesn’t drink" could have a drink if they wanted to. An alcoholic who doesn’t drink... can’t.

Alcoholism is a bit like diabetes in that it can be managed into a state of permanent remission. For some people, the process begins and ends with simply putting down the bottle for good. For others, more is required. However, in any case, it can’t be erased as if it never happened.

JeffreyAK

There's pretty compelling evidence that after 10 years tops, usually much less, your ex-addict brain is indistinguishable from someone who never drank in MRI scans. That doesn't mean you can go back to drinking (I sure couldn't, but fortunately I have no interest in going there), but it's not true that your brain is any different physically or chemically from the person across the street. If I can find the journal article I'll post a reference, it's very interesting.

MsJax

I haven't read all the responses yet. For me, I live IN recovery, and sobriety is when I started to automatically do the right thing, make the sober choice without even knowing I was choosing. So I Am Sober. For example when I first got sober it was a conscious effort, every minute, to not pick up a drink. Driving to work: choose actively not to drink. In the grocery store: actively choose not to buy booze. And so on. Now, thank god, living sober I am automatically doing the right thing. I am going through some really annoying and frustrating legal issues right now and after a few crazy days I look back and realize that not one single time did I even think of picking up! In the past the first automatic response would be to get drunk as hell.

Andante

Ah, I see. Well, if an MRI scan is unable to reveal any physical or chemical difference between the brains, then certainly there can’t be any.

After all, our brains didn’t actually contain neurons, axons, and synapses until microscopes were invented that could detect them.

Boleo

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...teresting.html

Redmayne

All this may be true from your perspective, but not mine or others, remembering perspective is just what it is and is not the truth...

I also notice you've referred to alcoholics who are in effect suffering an addiction, but what about the small percentage , 8% who are 'real alcoholics' which is whom the book, 'Alcoholics Anonymous' and their recovery, specifically in Chapter 3,'More About Alcoholism' refers to , together with 'The Doctor's Opinion'.

I take it, from your perception, the first 100 , responsible for the content and production the book, where wrong?

Please bear in mind, the first rule of advocacy is never to ask a question you don't already know the answer to, and this is the second one.

JeffreyAK

We use dictionaries so we can all understand the sense of meaning when someone speaks or writes a word. I'm curious, what do you mean when you call yourself an alcoholic after 7 years?

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al·co·hol·ism n.

A disorder characterized by the excessive consumption of and dependence on alcoholic beverages, leading to physical and psychological harm and impaired social and vocational functioning. Also called alcohol abuse, alcohol dependence.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

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(Psychiatry) a condition in which dependence on alcohol harms a person's health, social functioning, or family life

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged© HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

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a chronic disorder characterized by repeated excessive use of alcoholic beverages and decreased ability to function socially and vocationally.

Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.

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A progressive, potentially fatal disease characterized by the excessive and compulsive consumption of alcoholic beverages and physiological and psychological dependence on alcohol. Chronic alcoholism usually results in liver and other organ damage, nutritional deficiencies and impaired social functioning.

The American Heritage® Science Dictionary Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

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1. an addiction to alcohol, especially involving compulsive, excessive consumption.
2. the pathological effects of such overindulgence. — alcoholic, n.See also: Alcohol

-Ologies & -Isms. Copyright 2008 The Gale Group, Inc. All rights reserved.

Andante

I sense that this is a lost cause, but I'll still take a shot at it in case someone comes along who is serious about actually wanting an answer.

I call myself an "alcoholic" because the term "alcoholism survivor" would be too coy and pretentious and the term "former alcoholic" would be fooling myself.

My alcoholism stays in remission for only as long as I'm vigilant about doing what it takes to keep me away from taking a drink. This includes, but is not limited to, avoiding picking up the that first drink. I believe that the potential for alcoholism to reactivate will always exist in my brain as a permanent imprint. There is no reset back to its pre-alcoholism condition. Thus, I will always be an "alcoholic."

Redmayne

Responses worthy of their authors, no change there then...

RobbyRobot

My being in agreement with what is described as alcoholism illness, as suggested in Alcoholics Anonymous texts, is why I call myself an alcoholic. Well, actually, recovered alcoholic drug addict.

Definitions are useful when context is well understood. You already admit to you never have understood alcoholism as such is embraced by certain folks, like me apparently. A scarlet letter analogy is your best working understanding? Alrighty then. You've (apparently) made your choice on alcoholism as being non-existent as an illness, based on your present (gathered) understandings. You then claim at some point a person who doesn't drink, irregardless of their own experiences, and understandings, you assert they are in fact at some point just another person who doesn't drink. Well, I'm not just a guy who doesn't drink. And I never will be. I'm much more than what such a simplistic and disingenuous claim of being a non-drinker suggests about my past drinking, my present and future sobriety, and my non-drinking future. Recovered alcoholic drug addict speaks the truth for me, and I'm all for it. With a grateful pride in fact. Yeah, I don't drink anymore is true, but its not the whole story. Not at all.

For me, alcoholism is anything but a scarlet letter of shame. I don't subscribe to the dogma rhetoric that alcoholism is shameful. Not even when an alcoholic drinks, is alcoholism shameful. What is shameful about drinking is drinking irresponsibly. Since my drinking would be as an alcoholic if I drank, and not as just another guy who drinks, the shame is squarely on my being irresponsible for drinking knowing what I know about myself. I don't play shame games with any illness.

Redmayne

Great post! Not least for all your constructive comment and criticism, refreshingly aimed at the subject of the thread, on the basis of 'attack the argument not the person'. Cognitive (truth and reason) at it's best!

In also second your, intelligent rationale, in suggesting that alcoholism should be regarded as an illness, not a vice.

Which falls into the difference of being typified by those who drink it irresponsibly and abuse it to the point of addiction.

Which is the difference between 'real alcoholics' as defined in the AA literature, whose problem is the disease/illness of alcoholism and 'alcoholics' whose problem is with alcohol and their irresponsible use of it.

You cannot cure alcoholism, e.g. real alcoholics, but you can arrest, what is a progressive disease/illness by abstention from alcohol. The illness still remains in them, e.g. I accept, even with seven years sobriety behind me, I will always carry the disease with me.

You can cure alcoholics, something which rehab, and detox centers do all the time, and provided they don't return to their old habits, they'll remain sober. Neither will the carry the disease with them, unless of course they relapse, which indicates that they and those around them should consider if heir drinlinking has more serious connotations. Rather than just being addicted to alcohol and that they may suffer from alcoholism?

Bearing in mind that alcoholism is an illness of ignorance, not helped by the fact that it's the only illness that'll tell you , you haven't got it. To late when you're in the mortuary or in a mental institution, most hoping the former comes first...

I hope to see more of your contributions on here, thank you.

JeffreyAK

You're free to wear your letter proudly if it makes you feel more secure. I'm just a former addict who thinks it's important at some point to move on in life, and I struggle to understand why some feel it important to carry the label and remain mired in the past, as if they have some dreadful disease. Your tone suggests you're not interested in mutual understanding, only in repeating AA texts, so perhaps there is little point in continuing. But thank you at least for an honest response, despite it's dismissive tone.

RobbyRobot

Jeffery, I heartily respect our differences, and so I'm not being at all dismissive, even if you take my "tone" as such, okay? No upside to me sharing with you and at the same time being difficult, and I hope you can appreciate my efforts for a kind of working mutual understanding I understand your take on alcoholism pretty well I'm thinking. Its not as if its remarkably different than of most other former addicts commonly shared opinion I've heard over the past 30+ years since my last drink. As well, I'm no AA poster boy or flag carrying mule either, so I've nothing to lose meeting you eye to eye. There is nothing we could discuss which would worry or concern my established and well seasoned sobriety. I have no axe to grind about our differences.

I just really don't wear my alcoholism with any shame, and my life easily shows as much. I'm also not mired in my past alcoholism either. I'm light years away from the days of my active alcoholism. I think you tend to present your experiences as generalities which when applied to my experiences simply don't fit me as offered. So, I felt it only right to (strongly) suggest it might be worth your interest to know not everybody fits your generalizations of recovered alcoholics who choose to self-identify as alcoholics.

Jeffrey, thanks for respecting my honesty. Likewise I assure you.

Boleo

I kind of see your point about not dwelling on past mistakes. If that were all there is to addiction.

However, addiction never fully goes away. The causes and conditions that started all this trouble in the first place will always be there whether or not you buy into the disease model.

I personally don't like to call myself a alcoholic because I have solved my problem to a degree that the substance is no longer the issue. That being said, I still have the organs and the brain chemistry of someone who has an abnormal tolerance to mind altering substances, not just alcohol.

Those of us in recovery need to constantly remind ourselves that we are never cured. We are at best in remission. If I were to call myself an ex-drinker, non-drinker or former drunk - sooner or later I would start thinking of myself as normal. Something I will never really be again.

None of this explanation comes directly from AA literature or meetings. Alcoholism is a progressive disorder 100% of the time. Traveling backwards will not be possible till time machines have been invented.