to die while alive

Old 09-15-2014, 11:12 PM
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Redmayne
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to die while alive

There is a suggestion in Zen Buddhism that we should,

' Die while alive,

Thoroughly die,

Then do just as we will,

and all is right.' Shido Bunan Zenji

Which I interpret as follows, to 'Die whilst alive', simply refers to the mental rather than the physical state, in which our state of mind or sense of being lies.

To ,'Thoroughly die' means ridding our minds of the fear and apprehension that exists in all of us about the past, present and future.

'Then just do as we will' simply means that in doing so, we can release our inherent 'buddha nature' i.e. our ability to do good, living each moment in the present, no matter what we're doing whether it is for ourselves or others, no matter how big or small the task. Including the idea of being good to others and good to ourselves in a loving, compassionate way.

'and all is right' suggests in doing so we become our true selves, just as we were meant to be before we were even born.

Hence the koan (riddle) ,'Show me your true face before you even me your parents?'


I think as an alternative to dying whilst alive, which is surely what I and many others who suffer the disease/illness of alcoholism, in their 'drinking days', my own lasting about 30 years, is as good as an alternative, in recovery, you can get and insobriety an even better way of living!

Complimenting any other way of recovery, in or out of A A....

The text 'Die while alive' can be found in Soko Morinaga's book, 'Novice to Master - An Ongoing Lesson in The Extent of My Own Stupidity,' the latter describing me and my life perfectly...
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Old 09-15-2014, 11:45 PM
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You did this to me. You made me junk. You ruined me. I hate you. I hate myself. I want to die. I think I'll kill myself. Alcohol. Drugs. Didn't die. The pain's too bad. Can't die. Desperate. Have to do something. Recovery?

Those I once blamed for the hopelessness of my condition I ended up crediting with my recovery.

If you hadn't pushed me into so desperate a situation I wouldn't have needed so powerful a solution.

The anger turned to gratitude.

But then, I saw that you didn't mean it to help. But you didn't do it to hurt either. In fact, it had nothing to do with me. Nothing to do with me at all.

The gratitude dissolved.

The anger remained gone.

You were just playing your part and I'm playing mine. No blame.

Rafting down the river here watching it all float by.

Or is it me floating by?

Yep. It's one of those. And both. And neither.

Floating by dissolved.
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Old 09-16-2014, 12:07 AM
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dont really know how you can apply to die while alive to kids who die ? this is the acid test i put to all these things or sayings these days and when i try to understand the point its trying to make then it becomes a non starter when i think of kids dying who never have a chance to do anything wrong in life etc
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Old 09-16-2014, 12:19 AM
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Great post.
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Old 09-16-2014, 03:16 AM
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It's a philosophical approach...

To understand this thread and get any benefit, for those who are worried about children, you must first understand that in doing so you must take a philosophical approach to it, as all the things it refers to exist in your mind, to a greater or lesser degree. Having regard to the existing circumstances to each individual. To raise the point of children shows a great lack of understanding of humanity, not just children although they form a part of humanity, and a very important part, for they are the future, itself...

It's nothing to do with blame or innocence in anyone, let alone children...
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Old 09-16-2014, 03:35 AM
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to desypete...

I never asked a question, you did, with your acid test...the thread is of a philosophical nature.

It doesn't mean you, I or innocent children should die or even need, as children or would even less, understand how to even go about taking a philosophical approach to anything.

As a child I couldn't and I doubt if you could,perhaps that's a better acid test? Just a thought...
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Old 09-16-2014, 06:26 AM
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“Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes?"

(Matthew 6:25)
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Old 09-16-2014, 06:33 AM
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THE PROFESSOR AND THE PARADOX

4. We DIE TO LIVE. That is a beautiful paradox straight out of the Biblical idea of being "born again" or one's life to find it". When we work at our Twelve Steps, the old life of guzzling and fuzzy thinking, and all that goes with it, gradually dies, and we acquire a different and a better way of life. As our shortcomings are removed, one life of us dies, and another life of us lives. We in A.A. die to live.
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Old 09-16-2014, 06:39 AM
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Attacking the argument.

'Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned,' the Dalai Lama in his 'Little Book of Buddhist Wisdom'.

Written on the basis of the idea of 'attacking the argument, not the person', I find any suggestion that what I wrote or the text used in my original thread, would in the view of any right minded, reasonably intelligent person, capable of thinking cognitively (truth and reason). Could in any way, shape or form bear any inference or expectation that any children, let alone innocent children should, 'die whilst alive', in the terms I or the text used refer to.

In fact, whatever 'acid test' you refer to, I find it quite incredulous, from a personal point of view, as both a parent and grandparent, as I'm sure many on here are. That anyone with any knowledge or experience of children should even think a;long those lines, let alone put it into writing in a manner to be aired on a forum. On this site, primarily involved in the sober recovery of others, or any other site, as it, I would think by common consensus reflects poorly on them and their sense of responsibility to the sober recovery community. Not withstanding the guidance offered on the sites policy, or any other constructive comment or criticism they, or others care to make.
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Old 09-17-2014, 07:28 AM
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if you take all you belive in and the words of wisdom like the footsteps thing for example some people will look back on there lives and believe someone carried them and ignore all the pain and suffering they had to go through based simply on the fact they survived it

this is where i would use the children as an acid test they havent even had a life to look back on so it seems very odd that these things seem more directed at older people who have lived a bit
its almost as though you can train yourself to simply ignore the suffering of others just so long as it fits in with your own view

for me personally i have to live in the here and now i have to reject fantasizing an deal with life each day as it comes sober or drunk

i know were drink will take me and what it cost me last time, i know how hard it was for me to keep on trying to stop drinking and all the many failed attempts
the only thing that got me sober was the day i walked into an aa rooms and started to learn
nothing took me to an aa room i had to make my own way there, nothing told me to go to aa except my own pain as the drink just couldnt remove me pain anymore

i had finaly hit a point in my life were i would want to die rather than drink again
infact thats exactly all i wanted to do i just wanted to go to sleep and never again wake up to face yet another day of pain and suffering

i can not pass on my desperation to anyone least of to anyone who comes into aa with so much left in life to lose or has never been in prison etc
all i have to offer these guys is a look into there own future if they dont do something about there own drinking as i am not unique as i believe any real alcholic will follow my path if they drink again and carry on drinking
it will lead to loseing everything, being homeless with no money and death but hopefully death will come first before the homelessness as those poor guys out there tonight sleeping rough with nothing will be all praying tonight that they never wake up

those guys show me just how lucky i am to have what i do have and how easy it would be for me to end up joining them

i would rather sit with a tramp for 5 mins than be blinded by people who are so full of themselves and on wisdom hunts

thats no reference to anyone in particular its just how i have come to understand alcoholism.
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Old 09-17-2014, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by desypete View Post
dont really know how you can apply to die while alive to kids who die ? this is the acid test i put to all these things or sayings these days and when i try to understand the point its trying to make then it becomes a non starter when i think of kids dying who never have a chance to do anything wrong in life etc
I have been around here and know what your boy went through. I can't say enough how sorry I am for him, you, his siblings, his friends, his teachers and everyone who loved him. But...what is it you need to hear from other people? I ask this sincerely as someone I know just lost a child. I can't understand. You say that people ignore suffering if it doesn't fit in with their worldview. That's not true. I know it exist but also haven't experienced it at your level. The thing is what can I do about it? The whole world can't go around stuck in despair because bad things happen. Some of it is in human control yes, some of it is not. I can control how I act and react that's about it from where I sit.

PS the term "wisdom hunt" made me laugh
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Old 09-17-2014, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Redmayne View Post
There is a suggestion in Zen Buddhism that we should, 'Die while alive'.
My understanding of this relates to Buddhist thought regarding attachment. Attachment, in this view, is the cause of suffering. As people strive to hold onto things that they have, they have fears, anxieties and feelings of loss which can make life quite unpleasant. "To die while alive" is a metaphor. It's a metaphor for giving up all attachment and in the process gaining, a deep realization (and acceptance) that everything is transitory.

For me, this notion is also closely related, in spirit, to in the serenity prayer.
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Old 09-18-2014, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by awuh1 View Post
My understanding of this relates to Buddhist thought regarding attachment. Attachment, in this view, is the cause of suffering. As people strive to hold onto things that they have, they have fears, anxieties and feelings of loss which can make life quite unpleasant.
"A man should measure his wealth by that which he does not need".

(Unknown author)
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Old 09-18-2014, 07:16 AM
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'I Die Daily' ~ 1Cor. 15;31
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Old 09-18-2014, 12:07 PM
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That reminds me of an episode from "The Middle" were Brick goes around breaking everything based on a Zen principle that we should imagine everything that we love as already having been broken. I can see how it's true that nothing I can know is permanent.
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Old 09-18-2014, 02:35 PM
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Sounds similar to ...

Which sounds similar to the old Jewish tradition of leaving part of a room in their houses without decoration, to show that it's not their home ....
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Old 09-18-2014, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Redmayne View Post
'You have the freedom to be yourself, your true self, here and now, and nothing can stand in your way.'

'Messiah's Handbook - Reminders for the Advanced Soul' - Richard Bach. ....
I spoke to Richard a couple weeks ago; he's doing well.
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Old 09-19-2014, 03:36 AM
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Good to hear that...

That's a good thing to hear, hopefully now fully recovered from his 'plane crash, I've also got his book, 'Illusions 2: The Adventures of a Reluctant Student', on which it's is based.

One of mine and many others is 'Johnathan Livingston Seagull', a character I was once identified with, but I'll let others be the judge of that.I was even more delighted when I read that one of its critics described him as an 'anarchic christian', which does sound like me....
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