Anonymity

[emmanuel2012]

Originally Posted by Webster's online dictionary reference

Main Entry: an·o·nym·i·ty
Pronunciation: \ˌa-nə-ˈni-mə-tē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural an·o·nym·i·ties
Date: 1820

1 : the quality or state of being anonymous
2 : one that is anonymous

Main Entry: anon·y·mous
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈnä-nə-məs\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Late Latin anonymus, from Greek anōnymos, from a- + onyma name — more at name
Date: 1631

1 : not named or identified
2 : of unknown authorship or origin
3 : lacking individuality, distinction, or recognizability

— anon·y·mous·ly adverb
— anon·y·mous·ness noun

This here above is all i need to know that AA/NA will NOT work me.
Anonymity is supposed to the "foundation" or underlying principles
that doesn't sit tight with me. this is post-humanism as its worst.
If i'm going to be responsible, accountable and respected in society,
why would i want to be associated with any organization that holds this idea sacred?

My aunt, who is an awesome woman, once told me, when i gave her a music CD that i created,
asked me why I don't have my name on my CD. it was just my artist name, not my real family name.
She told me, in the same sitting, "if it's good work that you're doing, you would put your name on it. i won't listen to your music until you give me a CD with your real name on it."
this, in my 20's still developing as a young man, was a very impressionable conversation to me.
if you called it Accountability Anonymous, that might make me want to join.

i;ve been in the rooms, iv worked the steps. they all made me want to drink/use. and my god is not an unknown authority. the god of my understanding doesn't "work" for me, and i dont work for him. I fact, I don't even have a God. What a silly concept.

Why does everybody is Seriousland this there is a God?
Because they feel it necessary for their comfort to know
that "higher" or "other" (anything outside of your own forces)
is what created you, is irrelevant. that is not what i know.
i can only know what i feel, see, sense and hear *from* within

i am a spiritual being. i don't need anyone elses' spirit to valid mine.
nobody else is responsible for my being except me. Nobody.
i don't have a creator other than my own desire.
i manifested physical form from the desire to know be and see
and to be known, seen, and understood.

[yeahgr8]

I assume that because AA/NA does not work for you that it is still ok for the millions of people that it does work for to continue getting sober through this method?

Sounds like you are sorted then...i tried staying sober on my own beliefs and couldn't do it, glad you have found your own way:-)

[sailorjohn]

Originally Posted by emmanuel2012

This here above is all i need to know that AA/NA will NOT work me.

Great.

When you find something that does, let us know about it.

[emmanuel2012]

Originally Posted by yeahgr8

I assume that because AA/NA does not work for you that it is still ok for the millions of people that it does work for to continue getting sober through this method?

of course, live and let live. i take my share of the world and i let other people have theirs, as a true gentleman. just becuase something doesnt work for me gives me no right to want to abolish it. i can still crack fun at it right?

Sounds like you are sorted then...i tried staying sober on my own beliefs and couldn't do it, glad you have found your own way:-)

thanks

[emmanuel2012]

Originally Posted by sailorjohn

great.

When you find something that does, let us know about it.

yoga!!!!!!!!

[Wolfchild]

[Cubile75]

Originally Posted by emmanuel2012

If i'm going to be responsible, accountable and respected in society,
why would i want to be associated with any organization that holds this idea sacred?

i am a spiritual being. i don't need anyone elses' spirit to valid mine.

The society in which I live still stigmatizes addiction and alcoholism, so they don't need to know... Your words kind of scare me... we can still be held accountable in society without having to tell everybody everything about ourselves... Perhaps the book "1984" didn't do anything for you.


Ummm, emmanuel, I hate to say this, but uh, AA and NA are spiritual programs...

You are probably just playin' around...

Mark

[OzSandy]

It takes an alcoholic to understand another alcoholic, therefore the fellowship as a means of support was formed. That's all I see in it. Group organizations can become corrupted by egos. Therefore the anonymity factor was introduced to maintain the integrity of the program. In AA everyone is on the same footing. I'm not a real strong AA person but don't see what you're getting at. In my twenties I probably thought that the source of all knowledge was inside myself, but that got turned on its head... the instincts and guidance of an alcoholic in early recovery aren't that trustworthy unfortunately.

[Zencat]

There are people that go through a long painful process of finding out the hard way what works and what doesn't in addiction treatment. I feel like one of the fortunate ones that found out early on what works for me in recovery. I thank my lucky charms for having been able to see a skilled therapist and learning how to develop a personalized addiction treatment plan early on in recovery.

[joedris]

You've been in the rooms, you've worked the steps, and yet you need to quote Webster regarding anonomity. Hmmm. I think in your AA "experience" you missed a lot, beginning with an understanding of AA's concept of the importance of the subject. It has nothing to do with "post-humanism", nor does the AA program even come close to what you describe. You contradict yourself by saying that you don't have a God, yet you claim to be spiritual. How does that work? You don't have a higher power but yet you object that you don't need anyone else's spirit to validate yours? How can that be if you don't have one?

If you don't like AA, that's fine. You don't need to "intellectualize" your reasons. Just say that you weren't successful in the program and leave it at that. We'll understand.

[jamdls]

I am not an AA person although I went to 8-10 meetings, but I've always felt that the second A in AA meant that what you shared in the meeting stayed in the meeting not that you have to keep your own story secret; it doesn't mean that you are not free to broadcast to the world that you are an alcoholic in recovery you just shouldn't broadcast it about anyone else. I am extremely proud of the fact that I have kicked the alcoholic habit and I do tell everyone and anyone about it; and I wear my recovery as a badge of honor and courage.

For me I know w/o a shadow of doubt that there is a God and that he is watching over me. God brought me back to life from a drunken/drugged overdose of that I have no doubt, and many other situations before the last time. Getting sober was my responsibility though, I had to do the work, I had to fight the demons; and now-- I thank God every single day for the strength and tools to win the fight.

[emmanuel2012]

Originally Posted by Cubile75

The society in which I live still stigmatizes addiction and alcoholism, so they don't need to know... Your words kind of scare me... we can still be held accountable in society without having to tell everybody everything about ourselves... Perhaps the book "1984" didn't do anything for you.


Ummm, emmanuel, I hate to say this, but uh, AA and NA are spiritual programs...

You are probably just playin' around...

Mark

1984 and orwellian visions scare me too. That is not the point. I am not playing around. If they are spiritual programs, wouldn't you want to embrace them religiously? And, if you are going to embrace something religiously, wouldnlt you want to include all aspects of your being, mind body and spirit? Seems to me that if you leave your name out of things, you are actually neglecting/sepeating your spirit with your body. Furthermore, if you won't wear your associations on your sleeve connected to your name as a proud member, I suggest not being associated at all. If you wish to remain anonymous for the sole purpose of what others will think, you are making that decision based on fear, or otherwise based on an assumption about others opinions. Wrong reasons for "being" something, wouldn't you say?

I'm just saying, if you are going to say anything at all, you should mean it. You should be accountable for every word you speak. Its better too be quiet than to say something you don't mean. And I belive that as you think, so shall yoube. So if you keep calling yourself an addict or an alcohlic, you will REMAIN one. I never say I'm an addict, that would confine me into a compartment of being. Likewise, I don't like saying "I'm a web designer" because, even though I am, that is not all I am. Its best to say "I deisgn web pages". This is more accurate.

Henceforth, might be better to say the truth "I have abused drugs in the past, and I have learned not to anymore" and move on. Instead, all too many people fall victim to the mind trap of thinking you'll be an addict/alcoholic your whole life. Well, if you think so, you will be. I don't think that about myself. I know people can reinvent themselves and move on from any situation, and what's stopping me most are the thoughts that say "you'll never change" I don't listen to those, because those voices are not my own, and my spirit doesn't agree with them.

Chemical dependency is a symptom of other things wrong. Sould be emotional issues, could be psychological issuess. But never for a second will I believe that addiction itself is a disease or a condition. Its a symptom that something else in your life is going wrong. Now instead of acting upon your symptom as the problem itself, I suggest that we should go deepers to discover what caused us to abuse stuff in the first place. Once you can correct those deeper aspects in life, chemical dependency doesn't have to be about who you are, but only what you did. In the past. Abusing stuff was merely a symptom of my otherwise uneventful social life, in my case. I fixed it by making a better social life. And I could put my name on that.

[yeahgr8]

So are you saying you are not an alcoholic/addict or just not now?

Even if we remove the disease part are you saying that something learned through enviroment and conditioning can be unlearned? The only way this could be true is if the individual had changed their situation, still leaving open the problem that should that situation change again to the old one the behaviour would return...does that make sense? If that were the case then it would not be posssible to make the statement that i used to do x but i don't do x anymore...more honest would be to say i used to do x but due to certain changes in my life/situation/enviroment i don't do x anymore thus leaving the person you are explaining this too with the full info?!

Basically i am saying, not very well, that if you used to drink/use because of your uneventful social life then potentially, in the future (hope not for your sake), that if your social life becomes uneventful again, for whatever reason, you could choose (relapse - if you like) to be back drinking/using again?

How is this managing the problem?

[Pinkcuda]

You couldn't be more correct. AA does not work. No more than a liquor store will get you drunk. You can go to the liquor store and actually go inside. You can stand there for a while and talk to the clerk and customers. You can probably pick up a few bottles and fondle them. You still won't get drunk. The liquor store still won't work.
Therefore I've come to the conclusion that bars and liquor stores don't get people drunk
You want to get drunk, it's all on you. Want to get sober, it's on you just the same.

[emmanuel2012]

i just dont get it.
am i he only one in recovery that believes in self-empowerment?
it doesn't make sense that a higher power (especially in the form of "a greater good")
should have authority over my own being. organizations like the church and larger-than-life corporations want you to think that sacrifices for "a greater good" so that you make sacrifices for "their" good. hence, the comment about 1984 is not far from the truth.
but power in the collective is not really power unless the individuals who make up the collective
are also empowered. the world is only as strong as its weakest link.

true power is truth. your truth is your power.
if you believe in a monotheistic godhead, god's truth is not your power, its his.
do you wish to be powerless? i don't.
do you believe that all me were created equal? i don't.
look around you. we are not all born with afflictions.
do you believe in original sin? i don't.
it's totem pole logic to keep the top and the top and the bottom at the bottom.

but i'm getting off topic.
the topic is anonymity.
how can detaching yourself from your name be a "spiritual foundation" that allows you to achieve a spiritual awakening? detachment has never led me to success, and that is why i'm not a good buddhist either. everything is connected and happens for a reason.

I'm already spiritual and i'm already awake. a spiritual awakening is not something you have to wait or work for. it just takes the knowledge that you are infinite love,
everything is a part of yourself. if you are experiencing the divine love that is you, it never fails that you will be happy, and you will not engage in destructive acts like abusing alcohol or other toxic chemicals.

so, it seems like spiritual kindergarten to me.
play nice. don't remember your friends names, have milk and cookies (coffee and cigarettes), talk about your powerlessness. surrender all youre decision-making to an unknown authority,
allow a collective consciousness to govern all of your lifes issues, and keep coming back.
works if you work it! have fun working, without me!

[emmanuel2012]

Originally Posted by joedris

You've been in the rooms, you've worked the steps, and yet you need to quote Webster regarding anonomity. Hmmm. I think in your AA "experience" you missed a lot, beginning with an understanding of AA's concept of the importance of the subject. It has nothing to do with "post-humanism", nor does the AA program even come close to what you describe.

the dictionary is not a valid source of definitions? AA's definition of anonmity is better than websters? oh! please, enlighten me.
the latin etymology literally means "no name".
either AA is just playing with words, or, you actually have a better definition.
if you do, i'd love to hear it defined... and if this program is so remarkably successful, why hasn't someone submitted this new and superior deifnition to webster, and why hasn't it been updated yet?

i refer to post humanism, because it takes the humanism out of the ideology. Anonymity takes personality out of the picture. isn't your personality something that led you to use in the first place? Anonymity can only be a spiritual foundation of something to the likes of 1984, Brazil, Ayn Rand's Anthem, or Aldus Huxley's a Brave New World. Surrender.
people in AA that ive talked to bout this say that its a paradox: "once you surrender, you win". Well i'm not about to base my spirituality in a paradox. sorry, thats not for me.

You contradict yourself by saying that you don't have a God, yet you claim to be spiritual. How does that work? You don't have a higher power but yet you object that you don't need anyone else's spirit to validate yours? How can that be if you don't have one?

Excuse me, but you can't understand that by having a spirit soul, an essence, that is your spirit, and being in touch with that as part of your being is not spiritual?

Your version of "Spiritual" means "believing in god".
My version of "spiritual" means "becoming god"

so, yes, i dont have a god (by definition "higher power") that exists outside of my awareness, and actually, only until i believed in my awareness as the highest authority of my life, only until i abolished the God Outside of me away from my life, only until i trusted and loved my own soul, did i ever see any spiritual progress. that is only been my experience.
i'm sorry if that contradicts yours.

maybe i'm a different breed of human than you.

If you don't like AA, that's fine. You don't need to "intellectualize" your reasons. Just say that you weren't successful in the program and leave it at that. We'll understand.

i'm really not trying to bash AA. i wanted to point out these intellectual positions that you call "intellectualizing" for the sole purpose of being matter-of-fact. why would i say "i wasnt successful" when stating that would mean that i have failed at something. I didnt' fail. If i really must say that i wasn't successful, i would state it like this:

"I made a few effort-filled attempts to believe in nonsense, and i wasn't successful at believing in nonsense. Nonsense didn't keep me sober, I kept me sober. After realizing this, I decided to stop sharing nonsense with others, and just stay sober on my own. " - Anonymous (not really)

[emmanuel2012]

Originally Posted by yeahgr8

So are you saying you are not an alcoholic/addict or just not now?

i suppose i was, and i'm not now. correct.

Originally Posted by yeahgr8

Even if we remove the disease part are you saying that something learned through enviroment and conditioning can be unlearned?

YES. now you're getting it.

Originally Posted by yeahgr8

The only way this could be true is if the individual had changed their situation, still leaving open the problem that should that situation change again to the old one the behaviour would return...does that make sense? If that were the case then it would not be posssible to make the statement that i used to do x but i don't do x anymore...more honest would be to say i used to do x but due to certain changes in my life/situation/enviroment i don't do x anymore thus leaving the person you are explaining this too with the full info?!

you're making this too complicated. people DO change. they can re-invent themselves. they can even alter their DNA by meditating, listening to music and various other activities (new scientific proofs are on their way). so even if you were born with such an afflicition or tendency to become afflicted, you can heal! healing means "reversing" the condition. it definately means that you don't have it anymore.

Basically i am saying, not very well, that if you used to drink/use because of your uneventful social life then potentially, in the future (hope not for your sake), that if your social life becomes uneventful again, for whatever reason, you could choose (relapse - if you like) to be back drinking/using again?

How is this managing the problem?

no need to manage my problem! it doesn't exist anymore!!!

[Missybuns]

literally means "no name".

yes "literally"...and 12 step programs are spiritual programs and not literal programs.
12 step programs use "anonymity" in a spiritual sense after the literal meaning has been planted. The seed grows into a realization (eventually) that "no name" means it doesn't matter what your personal name is...what matters it that anyone who has a problem can reach out to others who have overcome much the same problem, and gain some recovery from active addiction.

I can see how ego and self-righteousness could get in the way of this when resistance and reservations impede a 12 step approach.

Seems that one would simply choose another approach.

Missy

[mistycshore]

Originally Posted by emmanuel2012

This here above is all i need to know that AA/NA will NOT work me.
Anonymity is supposed to the "foundation" or underlying principles
that doesn't sit tight with me. this is post-humanism as its worst.
If i'm going to be responsible, accountable and respected in society,
why would i want to be associated with any organization that holds this idea sacred?

Anonymity is frequently tossed aside in both private and public proclamations that come from self-identified AA members. Think about it: If AA actually practiced anonymity, who would know that it exists?

Several books and a made-for-tv movie have been made about Bill W's creation of AA and several more books written by AA members. The ideal of anonymity might still be preached by loyal members but in practice . . .

[Missybuns]

oh...and since we are into the literal thing....

the root meaning of "spirit" is to breathe or breath

and, emmanuel, to your "becoming god" understanding ....the way I understand it we already are parts of the whole...we are little parts of God already.
God is within me....I know this on a human level....as long as I have breath.

I relate God to spirituality intellectually based on my experience with my own feelings and sharing them (relating/relationships) with others. I relate to God on a spiritual level (from within) as long as I am breathing. In my recovery, I do this relating to God consciously, whereas when I was in active addiction I had no conscious contact that was spiritually helpful. This is what the 12 step programs gives us a map in doing. I considered my self "lost"....so I got a map!

Take what ever road you like for your recovery!

Even though I have a map, I am not beyond asking for direction. A map does not supply a destination. Recovery is not a destination, it's a journey. I am on a journey, but without direction I can get lost all over again....as long as I am breathing.

Missy

[Gypsy Feet]

Originally Posted by emmanuel2012

of course, live and let live. i take my share of the world and i let other people have theirs, as a true gentleman. just becuase something doesnt work for me gives me no right to want to abolish it. i can still crack fun at it right?


thanks

Actually I think coming to a website to "crack fun" at an organization that hundreds of people on said website believe saved their lives is a pretty ill mannered thing to do, and not indicative of being a true gentleman.

[littlefish]

This here above is all i need to know that AA/NA will NOT work me.
Anonymity is supposed to the "foundation" or underlying principles

I wouldn't say that anonymity is an underlying principle in AA. The underlying principle is to stay sober.
I think you've misunderstood the purpose of anonymity. It is not a device to help people avoid being accountable, it is a means of allowing us to maintain privacy and safety.

One of the sacred principles of AA IS accountability, and if you have done the steps as you claim, you would know that steps 8 and 9 are all about accountability....

AA gives you the option of choosing to believe in a higher power as you choose to percieve it.

[mumbai78]

The reason for anonymity is to place principles before personalities...seems fair enough to have a program that does not let personalitities get in the way of staying sober/clean.

[joedris]

Posting deleted

[Outvoid]

Originally Posted by emmanuel2012

This here above is all i need to know that AA/NA will NOT work me.
Anonymity is supposed to the "foundation" or underlying principles
that doesn't sit tight with me. this is post-humanism as its worst.
If i'm going to be responsible, accountable and respected in society,
why would i want to be associated with any organization that holds this idea sacred?

When I first got into recovery, I did a lot of intellectualizing.

I was an atheist, so I decided that 12-step progams wouldn't work for me.

I was a nihilist, so I decided that the concept of "Higher Power" wouldn't work for me.

I got irritated at people in meetings, so I decided that meetings wouldn't work for me.

I found the slogans silly (eg. "One day at a time", "easy does it", etc), so I decided that meetings and slogans were silly and wouldn't work for me.

I thought the steps were humiliating, so I decided the steps wouldn't work for me.

I thought I was unique and nobody could possibly understand my issues.

My 'addict' was delighted. I stayed in my addictions for two more years.

What I found is that I don't have to agree with everything in the program. I don't have to agree with everything in the Big Book, Green Book, or 12x12. I don't have to say a slogan or prayer I don't like.

But if I want to be sober, I have to work a program of recovery.

--Outvoid--