not using vs recovery

[katie53]

ad has been forced clean by jail and probation. she has not used for almost 2yrs. was in a program 3 yrs ago.(either rehab or jail) got out and continued to use until arrested for dealing. Sat in jail for almost 1 yr and now is on probation. My point, she is not in any type of program or meetings claims to be clean. BUT, she just doesn't seem content. always tired. I feel at times she is not a happy person. She just doesn't seem to have much interest in things. Would a program be beneficial to her. She has no interest in meetings or a program. Is this just the way it is when someone quits using? I don't know if this makes any sense I'm hoping someone will understand what i mean.

[sailorjohn]

Yeah, been there, and I understand exactly what you mean. Abstinence does not equal recovery. The only thing thing that will improve her life is a program, many to choose from out there.

[joedris]

If she has no interest in meetings or programs, then it's probably a good bet that she really isn't interested in staying clean. There's nothing you or any program can do to help her if she doesn't want help. I know that this isn't what you want to hear, but unfortunately it's true. Hopefully she'll see the light someday and seek help. Until then I suggest you try Alanon and/or post this on the Friends and Families of Substance Abusers Forum.

[Zencat]

I see addiction like a medical related illness. So I have a addiction treatment plan. My treatment plan helps me maintain my recovery and keep the symptoms of addiction in check. I liken it to what I'm doing as someone would do if they had a heart disease and sought to improve their condition...they would follow a treatment plan.

[katie53]

thanks for the help. I have been going to alanon and do alot of reading on the f&f forum. I wanted to hear from someone who has been through a program and worked it. I have felt for some time now that she does not WANT to be clean, but does not want jail or prison either. Some days I think she is actually angry for not being able to use.but will also say she never wants to be back there

[sfgirl]

Wait what is "ad"? Alcoholic daughter? Sorry, sometimes I don't know abbreviations.

I think it is tricky to judge other people's recovery. Just because she is not formally part of a program doesn't mean she didn't work on her recovery in one way or another. Other people don't necessarily need to work on it. Other people are dry and not in recovery. But she could just as easily be depressed and seeing a therapist would help her a lot. I am not sure. I think it is dangerous as an outsider to assume you konw what someone is feeling on the inside and then make a prescription— not sure if this makes any sense.

[Impurrfect]

((Katie))

When I first got clean, I didn't really WANT to be clean, but considering I had just gotten out of jail/diversion center and didn't want to go back, was on probation, and had a job with bills, I decided I needed to stay clean.

And I did..for the most part. I did use, rarely, (my DOC is crack)...I'd use once then not use again for 3-4 months. People around me thought I was doing great, I was in a pretty good mood most of the time, but I wouldn't say I was in recovery. I was still NOT READY TO QUIT. I still held it, in the back of my head, that I could use again and not go to the depths that I went before. Heck...I had proved it, right? I had used then not used for 3-4 for months?

Then my best friend's husband came in with a handful of crack while she was at work....we smoked it. This was out of town. I went back the next week because all hell had broken loose..he was locked up, she was locked up (not drugs for either of them), her daughter, who I love dearly was on the run from DFACS and being the codie I was, I was trying to fix everything. Instead, I relapsed.

I was out for 2 weeks, and went further down than I had before. I was just lucky I didn't get arrested any of the 6 times I was stopped by police, in another state, which was a violation of my probation and they knew I was on probation.

That was my bottom. That was when my dad said "I hate you". I knew he didn't, but he damned sure had every reason.

I don't go to meetings. I did years ago, when I was abusing opiates but hadn't even discovered crack, and I appreciate what I learned and I still use what I learned. I don't have a "set program". I have, I guess, my own program. I have a tremendous faith in my HP, I have a terrific support system, mainly from SR. Not only am I on here, hours at a time, but when I'm not on here, I have friends from here that I e-mail. I have phone numbers from SR friends I can call. I also have some f2f friends that have known me most of my life.

What works in my program is that I want my recovery more than anything else. If I am troubled by something and "my" program isn't working, I'll ask those whose recovery I admire for advice.

I do have times when I'm depressed, down. However, they don't usually last very long. I won't go a day or two without making out a gratitude list.

I don't know if this helps any, but I just wanted you to see that not everyone goes to meetings. I think meetings are great, and if what I'm doing stops working, I will have my butt in a meeting in no time. Some people find different ways to recovery, but most often, you can tell when a person is working on recovery...there is a peacefulness about them. Right now my life is falling slap apart and 2 days ago I was all in a tizzy..today I'm okay..thinking "it will work out". What has happened to make a difference? Nothing, other than I've talked to my friend and I've prayed, and I've remembered that every other time I got in a panic, it ended up being for nothing. That, to me, is recovery.

hugs and prayers!

Amy

[socialismislost]

[QUOTE=katie53;2346106]ad has been forced clean by jail and probation. she has not used for almost 2yrs. was in a program 3 yrs ago.(either rehab or jail) got out and continued to use until arrested for dealing. Sat in jail for almost 1 yr and now is on probation. My point, she is not in any type of program or meetings claims to be clean. BUT, she just doesn't seem content. always tired. I feel at times she is not a happy person. She just doesn't seem to have much interest in things. Would a program be beneficial to her. She has no interest in meetings or a program. Is this just the way it is when someone quits using? I don't know if this makes any sense I'm hoping someone will understand what i mean



IMO, content is ones state of mind. Life doesnt get magically better once one stops using/drinking/imo. Its just that like everyone else, the addict deals with life sober, the good and the bad. One can either deal high/drunk and be happy about the sh@t sandwich that life deals, or one can be sober and can deal with the sh@t sandwich. Its about perception. And acceptance, as the AA meetings Ive gone to like to put it.

[yeahgr8]

You are talking years which indicates to me that if she was the exception to the rule and going to be able to continue not using and be happy without a program she would have done that already.

How to get her into a program is a different matter. I see people of all ages almost daily ringing contacts that they spent time in rehab with in order to encourage them to get down to meetings to no avail.

I can only suggest buying the literature that is available in AA/NA? Is there anyone in your Alanon group who knows someone of a similar age and same sex that is in good recovery that you could have, her and her alanon family member, pop round for a coffee time a few times, and your daughter being there at the same time in the house by 'accident'...if she could actually befriend someone in the program that may help attract her to it.

Beyond that there is nothing you can do so stick to your alanon program, my poor mother tried to help me sooo much, what a waste of her time that was...don't forget to keep living and enjoying your life...she isn't your responsibility with regard to this disease (although doing the above objectively may help...may not).

Best wishes:-)

[sfgirl]

Originally Posted by Impurrfect

And I did..for the most part. I did use, rarely, (my DOC is crack)...I'd use once then not use again for 3-4 months. People around me thought I was doing great, I was in a pretty good mood most of the time, but I wouldn't say I was in recovery. I was still NOT READY TO QUIT.

This triggered another thing for me— if at month 4 someone from the outside looking in had seen me they would have been like what has happened to her? She used to be so social and out and about now she just holes up in her house and never seems happy because I was pretty miserable for the first six months of sobriety. Other people might not yet really be recovering but put up some great fronts, actually for me when I was using I put up better fronts. I think this is why it is hard to judge. Ultimately, I feel like my recovery is solid and I emerged from my funk. Everyone has their own way and people aren't necessarily the same or happy go lucky when you take away the drugs— they might be a lot more serious and a lot more quiet.

[Done_With_It]

Originally Posted by sfgirl

I think it is tricky to judge other people's recovery. Just because she is not formally part of a program doesn't mean she didn't work on her recovery in one way or another. Other people don't necessarily need to work on it. Other people are dry and not in recovery. But she could just as easily be depressed and seeing a therapist would help her a lot. I am not sure. I think it is dangerous as an outsider to assume you konw what someone is feeling on the inside and then make a prescription— not sure if this makes any sense.

Makes perfect sense to me, that is very close to the mark what I was thinking.

but I just wanted you to see that not everyone goes to meetings. I think meetings are great, and if what I'm doing stops working, I will have my butt in a meeting in no time. Some people find different ways to recovery,

Couldn't agree more.........

My point, she is not in any type of program or meetings claims to be clean. BUT, she just doesn't seem content. always tired. I feel at times she is not a happy person. She just doesn't seem to have much interest in things.

There could be many reasons for this. For many of us the exact reason you stated above are the reasons that kept us using. Maybe she just hasn't figured out how to live happy yet without her doc, or it could be a medical thing, could be paws, could be many things. But that is part of what we have to do in recovery is figure these things out.
It took my brain time to readjust to life in a different way without meth livening up my world.
Like SF said I would just try not to assume anything, and ask her if you have questions, maybe she wants to talk about what is going on with her.
Maybe she is angry because the only time she felt a little bit of happiness or relief was when she was using, and it was taken away from her, could be so many things. But you will never know unless you let it play out and let her do her thing, or ask Her how she is feeling.

JMO

[matt88]

Yea, people love saying that abstinence doesn't equal recovery. But to me that's like saying that a foundation doesn't equal a house.

[Boleo]

Abstinence is NOT USING and feeling bad about it.

Recovery is not using and feeling GOOD about it.

I tried abstinence and found myself singing the Peggy Lee tune:

"Is that all there is..."

[matt88]

Abstinence refers to refraining from something - in this case that something is alcohol. Someone can not ingest alcohol and feel great, feel terrible, or feel indifferent, or any other range of emotions. All are still refraining from ingesting alcohol. Any other meanings attached to the word are extraneous imo.

[Boleo]

Funny how nobody wants basic, plain-old, standard, ordinary, common, run-of-the-mill, bare-bones, default, regular coffee these days but when it comes to a life-and-death issue like recovery most people do want:

basic
plain-old
standard
ordinary
common
run-of-the-mill
bare-bones
default
regular........................................... ............................Recovery!

[Ago]

If I had any questions I would ask her, but I am going to have to go with SFGirl on this one, in that her journey is her own and judging or questioning from outside isn't really helpful.

Personally, for me, what I found most helpful was taking care of myself and creating a "safe place", both for myself and quite frankly for the active alcoholics in my family, what I mean by that is I didn't push or lecture, and I kept a pretty healthy distance from them, but I let them know that if they ever desired help I would be there for them.

Five years after I reached that place my sister reached out to me, asked me for help and we got her in a rehab and she ended up kicking heroin.

Best thing I can do for myself and everyone around me is to take care of myself and focus on my own recovery whether it be for my alcoholism or codependent tendencies, and what I find helpful to remember is "attraction not promotion".

Originally Posted by matt88

Yea, people love saying that abstinence doesn't equal recovery. But to me that's like saying that a foundation doesn't equal a house.

I'm confused

a foundation doesn't equal a house, you need a solid foundation to build a solid house that's going to last, just like you need to "not drink or use" as a prerequisite to sobriety. Physical Sobriety in necessary sure, but Boleo is absolutely correct when he states:

Abstinence is NOT USING and feeling bad about it.

Recovery is not using and feeling GOOD about it.

That doesn't mean we don't go through difficult periods in sobriety, sometimes those periods last years, read Bill's story for example, but there has always been a difference for me, I can literally feel the difference between sobriety and abstinence in my soul, even when I am depressed and miserable, which does happen.

[matt88]

Originally Posted by Ago

I'm confused

a foundation doesn't equal a house, you need a solid foundation to build a solid house that's going to last, just like you need to "not drink or use" as a prerequisite to sobriety. Physical Sobriety in necessary sure, but Boleo is absolutely correct when he states:

No, you're not confused, you've got it.

Although I will say that I personally don't attach any extraneous meanings to the word abstinence, simply because such meanings are not really part of the etymological meaning of the word. But that's just me.

[Zencat]

Originally Posted by Boleo

Abstinence is NOT USING and feeling bad about it.

Recovery is not using and feeling GOOD about it.

I think along somewhat similar lines.

Abstinence is NOT USING and feeling.

Recovery is not using and learning to cope with feelings.

[CD-RUN]

Abstinence and recovery are two different things, but anyone would agree you don't get recovery without abstinence. Just because someone isn't using doesn't mean they are in recovery. Likewise, because someone is not going to meetings doesn't mean they aren't working on their recovery.

I've been clean and sober for 1 year and 40 some days and haven't been to the first meeting. You can't say with any certainty how someone is doing in recovery. I consider myself in recovery, as opposed to "dry," and I have my share of good days along with bad. Just because someone isn't on top of the world jumping with joy doesn't mean they are using or not working on recovery. They may be dealing with depression, or something they need to talk to a professional about. My 2 cents.

[matt88]

Abstinence seems simple enough to define.

Part of the problem is that recovery seems tougher to pin down, and much harder to define, and there seems to be lots of different personal definitions of the word. Like some people just call their everyday activities their recovery - even though it appears such things have no relation to alcohol.

Like me, I don't do a program of recovery really, no meetings or anything of the sort. I have a lifestyle in which I eat well and exercise, and meditate. I abstain from drinking, and I feel great about it 95% of the time. Eating well, exercising, and meditating, working on hobbies, interests, reading, etc someone else might consider those part of their recovery, but to me I'm just living my life and doing activities I enjoy. I did all those things while drinking too, just now I do them but don't drink - nothing more nothing less.

I guess I just don't identify with the notion that you have to be in a program of recovery to feel great about abstaining, because I do feel great simply abstaining. While drinking, just the thought of abstaining gave me optimism. If anything, in a way, I feel that when I do work on recovery, that I still revolve around alcohol and am therefore still mentally attaching myself to alcohol.

[Julian]

I'm an alcoholic trying to control my drinking. Ha Ha Ha. That has to be the most insane thing I've ever written. What's even crazier is actually putting energy into all my foolish endeavors to actually control my drinking. I've been drinking since I was 14 years old, I'm now 21 and the only thing that's changed in how crazy I am when I drink is now it's "legal."

[meo348241]

Abstinence to me isn't really what I need to be shooting for. The concept itself seems to suggest that whatever one is abstaining from will be back in the equation at some point. For example, one may use abstinence as a method of birth control. This doesn't mean that they're not going to have sex again at some point. Its a means to an end at this point. The flip side to that would be to take a vow of celibacy. There's something more significant at play here. Whatever the reason may be, celibacy implies that one genuinely wants to refrain from sex.

I think the analogy is exactly the same with abstinence and recovery. Honestly, I'm not really all that into understanding myself as a recovering alcoholic/addict but I think the idea holds true. I get drug tests at work. In that sense I'm abstaining. As screwed up as it is, I don't get tested for alcohol. I also work a three-day shift so I could probably get away with doing a line here and there. So really, its up to me whether or not I want to use. I choose not to. Staying clean so as to not get fired would be a means to an end. My sobriety is an end in itself. It has a lot of benefits but my sober life/being is its own reward. I'm content, I'm "with it."

I don't necessarily think its about working a program. I think that I'm working one, but its certainly not along the lines of any established recovery method. I see a therapist, I work out, eat right and I'm actively pursuing things in life that are important to me and acting on my beliefs. However, I truly believe that one can move on from addiction/alcoholism without a program. One example I've seen was my grandfather. His doctor told him one day that he needed to quit drinking for health reasons. Before anyone asks he was definitely an alcoholic. From that day forward he never picked up a drink again. Actually I saw him have a non-alcoholic beer at my great uncle's birthday party but never a "real" drink. He wasn't just abstaining either. He grew more pleasant and just really became a better person. He didn't follow any sort of program. I just think he possessed an incredible will and the transformation took place within him on its own. Perhaps all it took in his case was the removal of the poison that was crippling him.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

[luckyrina]

Being sober and staying clean is just what it is. Not being active in recovery. Maybe thats what work for that person. But recovery helps in alot of areas of how I think, how I accept things, what I can not control, how to Love myself unconditionally, how to be healthy to myself and others, and it just goes on and on and on. I love recovery.