Recovery without outside help....can it happen?

[NeedHappiness]

I used to post on the family and friends of A's area but thought I might get some feedback from here too.
My BF and I have been together for 4 years on and off. His alcohol addiction is what broke us up several times. This past episode we were broken up for a year and he decided he would do "whatever it takes" to get back together. I told him that the number one thing is that the drinking would have to STOP! Well, it did, and that was 18 days ago. He is doing very well with it and he says he CAN do this.
My question to you is: Is it possible for him to actually QUIT all together and not be in any type of program, counciling or treatmenmt of any kind? He has amazed me so far because he doesn't show any signs of a dry-drunk, nor has his attitude or personality turned nasty from cravings. I really don't know WHAT to think. I will tell you that I have found a whole new love for this man since he is so determined to feel better now!
Please feel free to give me any and all input from you recovering/recovered A's. I appreciate all responses.

thank you
allison

[mistycshore]

Statistically, the success rate of any program does not exceed that of "spontaneous remission," people who stop drinking without outside help. Your doubt in his ability to quit can't be good for him though.

[keithj]

NeedHapiness,

It's really impossible to say. I'd bet that the folks over on the F&F forum would give you a lot bleaker picture, but without knowing something about his drinking, about how far down the scale he is, anyone is just taking blind guesses.

You know this much, right. He has a good reason to stop drinking in getting the relationship patched up. For alcoholics like me, that reason is far from sufficient to stop. I do know dozens of alcoholics who thought they could stop because of relationship trouble, and subsequently failed over and over. They were even sincere in that belief and desire.

You also know that his alcohol problem has broken you up in the past. What has changed? 18 days is no indication one way or the other. Neither is his mood for those 18 days. Really, all you have is a promise, albeit a sincere one.

This might be a case of wait and see. A quality relationship should be worth taking it slow and easy and seeing where it goes. See how he does.

[bugsworth]

NeedHappiness...I agree with Keith...only time will reveal the truth. 18 days is still quite early but is a huge step in the right direction. Many people do quit without any type of "program" and are highly successful in maintaining their commitment to a life of sobriety.
There are numerous articles written about this subject and many of them conclude that most people do eventually quit without the aid of formal programs. I believe that it all boils down to the individual. I wish you and your BF much happiness.

[Pinkcuda]

Many people do quit without any type of "program" and are highly successful in maintaining their commitment to a life of sobriety.

I concur! It happens all the time.

[Boleo]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

Many people do quit without any type of "program" and are highly successful in maintaining their commitment to a life of sobriety.
There are numerous articles written about this subject and many of them conclude that most people do eventually quit without the aid of formal programs.

MANY? Maybe, if you call a "Spontaneous Remission" rate of 1 in 20 MANY.

Most? Far from it. A "Spontaneous Remission" rate of 1 in 20
means 19 in 20 fail.

[Wolfchild]

If it will not cause any problems with personalities or privacy, why not
suggest to him that he register for membership to the SR community?

[mistycshore]

Originally Posted by Boleo

MANY? Maybe, if you call a "Spontaneous Remission" rate of 1 in 20 MANY.

Most? Far from it. A "Spontaneous Remission" rate of 1 in 20
means 19 in 20 fail.

But the rates are the same across the board. Many people find sobriety in AA, about 5%, or 1 in 20. It's hard to know what "most" means, but I'm guessing it means "most of the people who remain abstained from alcohol." Of course, some people never recover.

[Anna]

Of course, people do stop drinking and recover without a specific program.

I have used boolks and SR and have been in recovery for a long time.

[keithj]

Originally Posted by mistycshore

Statistically, the success rate of any program does not exceed that of "spontaneous remission," people who stop drinking without outside help.

I want to leave this alone because you've been so nice, mistycshore, but I can't in good conscience. I feel it's extremely misleading and does harm to someone seeking help. The "rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path" is still applicable today.

If I believe that no program is any better than 'spontaneous remission', then there is absolutely no point in having treatment centers, AA, SMART, this website, support groups, etc. With that viewpoint, the only thing a recovered person has to offer is "good luck". My experience runs counter to that.

Personally, I tried quitting by will power a day at a time, the doctor/anti-depressant route, counselling, outpatient treatment, inpatient rehab, and AA w/o the steps. I had brief times of sobriety and always went back to drinking. When I took AA's 12 steps, I recovered. The obsession to drink was removed and I live a life beyond my expectations. That's my personal experience.

But I also have experience in working with others. It's not scientific by any means, but it's a starting point based on my own experience. In the past year, 3 guys I've worked with have made it all the way through the 12 steps. 2 of them have recently celebrated a year sober, and the other has 10 months or so. Not a certainty that any of them will stay sober long term, but I think they are in pretty good shape if they continue to practice the principles. I belive that because in other years, other guys I've worked with that have made it throught the 12 steps are still sober. Every single one of them. Of the subset of guys I've worked with who have made it through all 12 steps, every single one of them is still sober. That's a 100% success rate and jives with the rarely have we seen a person fail.

Let me clarify that I don't do anything special. I just help them take the 12 steps like I was helped. Nothing more, nothing less. Now, what about the guys who don't take the steps? Well, sticking to that same past year, I've had probably another dozen or so guys ask me to sponser. Usually, we play phone tag for a couple of weeks and they drop off the radar. Maybe they recovered also, but I see enough of them come back around in a few months or a year later to suspect that most of them went back to drinking. Of those dozen or so, I know at least 5 that relapsed and came back to the program. Another that balked at the 4th step is still sober in a drug court program. The others I don't know about.

So, if I tally up the known cases, 3/3 for those taking the steps, 1/6 for those not taking the steps. That 1 is suspect because I see a ton of the drug court folks relapse a few months after they 'graduate'. The others in the sample are unknown, but past observation does give a clue. They will be back.

That's my past year experience mistycshore, and it's consistent with any other year I look at. It's not scientific by any means.

Here's another way to look at it: I started working with 2 guys in the last 2 weeks. Sat down with each, same discussion, same directions. One of them has met me every couple of days with completed work out of the Big Book. He is actively taking the steps. The other I've left messages for that don't get returned. I'll take his call if he wants to start over, but otherwise I can't help him. He is doing nothing towards taking the steps. The 'any program as successful as spontaneous remission' idea would have me believe that those two have an equal chance at recovering. Do I believe that? Absolutely not.

Those who take the 12 steps recover. Those who do not, well, maybe they'll get lucky and spontaneously remiss.

Please share if you have experience that indicates otherwise.

[mistycshore]

Hi Keith. I'm glad you think I'm nice.

I wasn't sharing experience but known statistics that are well published. You are offering personal testimony, and that's great too. But just because the BB says something does not mean it is or ever was true, and AA is not the end-all, be-all of recovery - thank goodness!

I think you are nice too.

[bugsworth]

The original question was can someone quit without any formal program...the answer is a resounding yes. SR is a wonderful example of this truth...many wise and sober people here have beaten their alcohol and drug addiction without any "formal" program at all.
Once again it all boils down to the individual and their commitment to living a sober life.

[cassandra2]

Program or not I am not sure that it matters. It has been my experience that an addict HAS to quit for THEMSELVES and no other reason. I think that is why relapse is so common. They quit for the wrong reasons or for people.

Thats just my opinion. Not based on statistics. Just life experience. I do believe its possible for people to stop and continue to be clean on their own but I think the big IF is the reason they quit.

[Anna]

Originally Posted by keithj

Those who take the 12 steps recover. Those who do not, well, maybe they'll get lucky and spontaneously remiss.

Keith,

I want to clarify that, although I am not AA member, I have never 'spontaneously remissed', nor have I been 'lucky'. I work hard at my recovery every single day, without fail, and have done so for more than 8 years. My recovery continues today, and I enjoy the benefits.

[mistycshore]

I read an article some time ago that stated the people who stopped drinking without participation in a program did better if they had emotional support through family or friends. Of course, I imagine the same is true for people who do participate in a program, so I'm not sure how its relevant. I am certain that Bill W. was not the first person in the history of the planet who needed to quit drinking and did so. I'm sure that's been happening "since man first crushed grapes," some 10,000 years before Bill was born.

[least]

Tho I sometimes attend my homegroup AA mtg, I'm not 'working the steps' nor do I have a sponsor. I'm staying sober with the help of SR and my alcohol counselor, and my own sincere desire to stay sober and live a better life.

[keithj]

Kind of preaching to the choir Anna. I don't know what this spontaneous remission is, but most people I know that have successfully stopped drinking, have done so by taking some kind of action.

Apparently though, dilligently working some kind of program has no better success than 'just quitting'. Doesn't match my experience, or yours. The original post was asking if its possible to quit w/o a program. Sure it is. My experience shows that dilligent adherence to a program has a much higher success rate than quitting w/o a program.

[Dee74]

Is it possible for him to actually QUIT all together and not be in any type of program, counciling or treatmenmt of any kind?

Entirely possible Need happiness. I suspect millions of people did it before the formation of AA, LifeRing, SMART, modern psychology etc, and I know many continue to do so today.

But it needs hard work and absolute commitment. Like Anna, I've used SR as my support, I've been here for over 2 years....I work hard everyday on my own recovery, and helping others with theirs.

Eighteen days is very early in to make any kind of judgements, but I wish you and yr bf well

D

[mistycshore]

Originally Posted by keithj

Apparently though, dilligently working some kind of program has no better success than 'just quitting'. Doesn't match my experience, or yours. The original post was asking if its possible to quit w/o a program. Sure it is. My experience shows that dilligent adherence to a program has a much higher success rate than quitting w/o a program.

Of course, you would have no first-hand knowledge of those who quit without a program.

[keithj]

Originally Posted by mistycshore

Of course, you would have no first-hand knowledge of those who quit without a program.

Mistycshore,

I get your point. My experience is limited to those that walk into the rooms of AA, or those in half-way housing, jails, and the occasional aquaintance.

I'd also like to aplologize for coming off harshly to those that have found sobriety on their own means. I don't mean to be disparging of their hard work and efforts. I don't really mean to make any claims whatsoever about those who are able to stay sober by other ways.

I'll limit it to AA. Telling someone they have an equal chance of staying sober through spontaneous remission or by taking AA's 12 steps is doing them a disservice, and it doesn't match reality. I'm sure there are exceptions, but the people that thoroughly do the AA program recover. Take Anna as an example. She recovered by hard work and dilligent effort and whatever else she does. I'm confident that had she put her hard work and effort into AA, she would have recovered also. So will most everyone else that puts their effort into AA. The idea that those people putting their efforts into AA will have as much chance of long term sobriety as the 1/20 spontaneous remission stats needs to be challenged.

I see many people in the rooms of AA that are able to stay sober by doing little more than having the support group, learning how to have fun sober, finding new activities, and really applying themselves to not drinking.

But I also see many people in the rooms of AA for whom that approach fails over and over. Those people need something else. It's to those people that I feel your message is defeatist. Without any real exceptions, those people can recover if they work the AA program.

I look at the Newcomers forum on here as a fairly representative cross section of people that are genuinely interested in getting and staying sober. How many of them come back month after month starting from scratch with trying to stay sober? Bugsworth pointed out that many of them stay sober with the support from SR alone. I agree. I'm generally a glass half full kind of guy, but I do see many of them that don't stay sober.

I think your message is that they have no better shot of staying sober than the 1/20 rate. My message is that they have a near 100% chance of long term sobriety and happiness, provided they do certain things.

I'm not in any way implying that many people can't stay sober with other methods or by just applying themselves. I see many examples of that. What I am saying is, there is hope for those that have not been sussessful on their own.

Hope that makes sense.

[bugsworth]

Keith, It means so much to those of us who have worked diligently to achieve and maintain our sobriety when you acknowledge that it takes hard work and effort. It seems much of the time others act as if we just woke up one morning and simply walked away without all the ensuing emotions and issues that enviably arise after years of alcohol addiction. For that I thank you.

The claims that abound regarding those who choose sobriety without aa are pervasive in many posts. Starting with and not limited to an automatic assumption that those who choose another avenue other than aa are not “real alcoholics” and that is disparaging in of itself. I have no doubt in my mind that my death was eminent if I did not stop drinking...I know this because part of me wanted to die...I saw no end in sight to the unyielding anguish. Fortunately I had a moment of clarity and thought about the legacy that my children would have to burden for the rest of their lives if I followed through...this was my turning point...my sufficient reason. I had three choices...remain a drunk...kill myself or get sober. I got sober because I wanted to live a sober life and I was going to do what ever it took to get it. We are not so different...same addiction, different “treatment” if you will.

Without any real exceptions, the people of whom you speak that “need something else” need to know the truth...no one else can get them sober...it always has been and always will be an inside job. There are as many paths to sobriety as there are people to walk them. I agree with you, there is hope for all.

[mistycshore]

Originally Posted by keithj

I get your point. My experience is limited to those that walk into the rooms of AA, or those in half-way housing, jails, and the occasional aquaintance.

I'd also like to aplologize for coming off harshly to those that have found sobriety on their own means. I don't mean to be disparging of their hard work and efforts. I don't really mean to make any claims whatsoever about those who are able to stay sober by other ways.

I'll limit it to AA.

And that's a heck of a limitation.

Telling someone they have an equal chance of staying sober through spontaneous remission or by taking AA's 12 steps is doing them a disservice,

Telling the truth is sometimes a disservice, I agree. But I think those are rare occasions and this isn't one of them.

and it doesn't match reality.

Well then, we're going to have to somehow define "reality" as being different from "fact."

I'm sure there are exceptions, but the people that thoroughly do the AA program recover. Take Anna as an example. She recovered by hard work and dilligent effort and whatever else she does. I'm confident that had she put her hard work and effort into AA, she would have recovered also.

This is based on your own belief, Keith. It does not gel with what Anna or anyone else who responded to this thread said. Why is it so important to you that AA be the one-size-fits-all solution for the population of the planet?

So will most everyone else that puts their effort into AA.

The idea that those people putting their efforts into AA will have as much chance of long term sobriety as the 1/20 spontaneous remission stats needs to be challenged.

Feel free to challenge it, but you might want to think carefully about what that stat means. Also, evidence would be helpful. Personal testimony and personal belief, such as one finds in your post, Amway presentations and religious revivals - is not evidence.

I see many people in the rooms of AA that are able to stay sober by doing little more than having the support group, learning how to have fun sober, finding new activities, and really applying themselves to not drinking.

But I also see many people in the rooms of AA for whom that approach fails over and over. Those people need something else. It's to those people that I feel your message is defeatist. Without any real exceptions, those people can recover if they work the AA program.

You are arguing against your own dogma here, Keith. Your own BB will tell you that, per the author (certainly not the most reliable source), 25% never recover in AA. Of course, those people are labeled as "constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves." What I find defeatist is your insistence that just "getting God" will work 100% of the time. The FACT is it works about 5% of the time, so the other 95% are . . . what? Constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves?

I look at the Newcomers forum on here as a fairly representative cross section of people that are genuinely interested in getting and staying sober. How many of them come back month after month starting from scratch with trying to stay sober?

Yes, that's the bugger about recovery. Relapse is common - it is the whole problem with addiction, it is the very definition.

Bugsworth pointed out that many of them stay sober with the support from SR alone. I agree. I'm generally a glass half full kind of guy, but I do see many of them that don't stay sober.

I think your message is that they have no better shot of staying sober than the 1/20 rate. My message is that they have a near 100% chance of long term sobriety and happiness, provided they do certain things.

Well far be it from me to question your authority on what will work for other people, but your Whitmanian insistence that your experience is everybody's experience is really astonishing - and definitely not based in reality.

The fact I stated is that any recovery program works about 5% of the time. So I'm guessing - no proof to offer here - that the 5% that recover in AA might or might not be the same people who recover on their own. Or they might or might not be the same people who would recover in SMART, or on SR or anywhere else, or through engaging in therapy, or using opiate blockers or through using anti-depressants, etc. - but I'm guessing . . . NOT the same people. So, stop and really think about that, Keith.



Who are you serving here? It seems to me that you are more concerned about promoting AA than seeing people recover, because if the latter were the case - the more options, the better - right?

Why do you keep chasing me around yelling, "my way, my way, my way"?

I'm not in any way implying that many people can't stay sober with other methods or by just applying themselves. I see many examples of that. What I am saying is, there is hope for those that have not been sussessful on their own.

Well, duh! Gee whiz, Keith, I imagine that it is a few people who wind up in a recovery program without having already tried to stop on their own. Actually, maybe not so few since 12-step programs have become something of a dumping ground for the justice system. But I believe a great many more wind up quitting on their own, or through other methods, because 95% of people who experience drinking problems do not die of alcohol-related deaths.

Here's a clip of an article that appeared just today. A link to the full article follows:

A. There are some really astonishing new findings. One is that over 70 percent of people who develop an episode of alcohol dependence in their lifetime have a single episode that lasts on average three or four years, and then they remit and they don’t relapse. About 12 percent of adults have had alcohol dependence in their lifetime, at some point.

This is from this new study called the National Epidemiological Study on Alcohol and Related Conditions. It is the largest psychiatric epidemiological study ever done; 43,000 people were interviewed. This is a household probability sample of the United States population, and what makes it absolutely unique is that the same people were interviewed three years later. So we have all this new information about the natural history, about relapse, about incidence and about subtypes.

Most of what we previously knew about alcoholism has been based on studies of 40-year-old white male alcoholics in treatment. Almost everything we hear about the disorder is based on that very small population.

Q. That’s basically the profile of Bill W., the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, right?

A. Precisely. It’s the profile of A.A.; it’s the profile of treatment program participants. These are people that have been ill for decades. They almost all have the chronic relapsing form. Most of them have coexisting psychiatric disorders. A lot of them have other things like social disability or physical disorders. It’s a pretty ill bunch.

If you look back over the history of how we learn about diseases, it always starts with the hospitalized people, and then over time gets to milder sorts of outpatient groups. Then when you get to the community, you get the full view, and that’s what we’re getting now. We’re finally understanding what the spectrum of the disorder actually looks like. And we’re finding it’s not this either/or thing.


Alcoholism - Expert Q & A - Challenging Old Assumptions About Alcoholism - NY Times Health

[Fubarcdn]

I quit six months ago because my wife told me I either quit drinking or to leave our place.
I made a list of the good and the bad of drinking and on the top of the list of reasons to not drink is my relationship with my wife.
As long as that outweighs all of the rest of the reasons to not drink I will remain sober.
It sounds like your boyfriend is in the same headspace as I am so I say give him a good chance and trust in him and see what happens.
I know this is contrary to the general opinions here but this is my experience to date.

[keithj]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

Keith, It means so much to those of us who have worked diligently to achieve and maintain our sobriety when you acknowledge that it takes hard work and effort.

I sympathize with your frustration of being labelled non-alcoholic just because you didn't use AA. I'm not comfortable with the circular reasoning I hear.

I think we can absolutely agree, bugsworth, that if you are a real deal alcoholic, it's going to take an awful lot of hard work and effort to get and stay sober. Doesn't matter what approach is taken, some serious dedication is required. And, I agree that sobriety is the ultimate inside job.

As to the original post, it still probably depends on where that person is in their addiction. If they are far gone, it's going to take some real change, not just playing around. As to mistycshore's last post, I think I'll graciously leave that alone. Although I'd love to see examples from that 95% of people who take AA's steps and fail to recover.

[bugsworth]

Keith, My frustration does not stem from what others believe me to be or not to be but rather it stems from my and other non-aaers inability to share our experience strength and hope without being told that it will be ineffective in helping a “real” alcoholic.
The 95% rate which is quoted so often is a retention rate of newcomers after one year...only 5% remain in aa.
I think the reason you don’t see examples of people who work the steps and fail to recover is because according to aa it’s impossible. When any member drinks it is always (as it should be) their responsibility. The program is never at fault it is always something the individual did or did not do. It is by design that this is so thus making the program infallible.